Julie Bindel piece interviewing a now-dissenting Yogyakarta drafter

[NecessaryScene1]

Interesting new piece in The Critic:

TheInebriati
Whats your alternative suggestion for a workplace that has been captured?
Instead of just criticising, offer a viable alternative because women are facing this agenda in their everyday lives and it has consequenses.

I think there are several different arguments that can be used, and one is indeed that we should not arm-twist people to "out" themselves as trans if they may not want to, which I actually think is a valid argument, but one that we can give in its own right rather than having to say "according to the Yogyakarta principles, we should not..." which to me is giving the "principles" a legitimacy that I don't think they deserve.

Other strong arguments against compulsory pronoun declarations are that they may lead to increased discrimination against women, or the effect of "stereotype threat" on them, through being pushed to specifically identify themselves as female; the right to privacy generally; the fact that some people may be questioning/unsure of how they identify; the relevance of requiring the information, and GDPR considerations, and probably others I haven't thought of just now.

I'm absolutely not saying that we shouldn't object, only that we should not base our objections on something as misogynistic and cod-sciencey (under the guise of "human rights") as much of the YPs are.

They are the signatories. Not the writers.

I wonder to what extent the overlooking of the effects comes out a kind of unspoken assumption that if you do things logically and with good will, there will not be rights conflicts.

I'd kind of expect experts in the area to know otherwise but maybe not.

@Scepticaltank

They are the signatories. Not the writers.

Are you saying that there were other people involved in writing this who aren't listed on the Yogyakarta Principles site but were on wikipedia? The +10 intro gives a list of a list of 8 people on the 'drafting committee', but they're all also on the list of signatories.

yogyakartaprinciples.org/introduction-yp10/

I can't see a drafting committee list for the original principles, but it says:
A distinguished group of human rights experts has drafted, developed, discussed and refined these Principles. Following an experts’ meeting held at Gadjah Mada University in Yogyakarta, Indonesia from 6 to 9 November 2006, 29 distinguished experts from 25 countries with diverse backgrounds and expertise relevant to issues of human rights law unanimously adopted the Yogyakarta Principles on the Application of International Human Rights Law in relation to Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity.

I understood that the original principles were drafted by those 29 people.

I've had a quick look at some of the archived versions of the wiki page, and I can't see any names which aren't on those lists.

"When you talk about trans women in toilets, well, many countries don’t have toilets, so how can that be a primary concern?”
It would be interesting to know how the safety of women correlates with something like toilets and single sex toilets. I suspect women are safer in countries where toilets are routinely available.

@PastMyBestBeforeDate

"When you talk about trans women in toilets, well, many countries don’t have toilets, so how can that be a primary concern?” It would be interesting to know how the safety of women correlates with something like toilets and single sex toilets. I suspect women are safer in countries where toilets are routinely available.

news.un.org/en/story/2014/11/484042-ensuring-womens-access-safe-toilets-moral-imperative-says-ban-marking-world-day

It’s pretty well established. The fact that the UN state single sex toilets are a “moral imperative” but UN Women also say TWAW has long been a source of anger:

mobile.twitter.com/UN_Women/status/1235977079839166464

So what is Wintemute going to do about it?

Apart from wring his hands and say "we didn't think..."?

Really interesting interview. If he and Julie Bindel and any of the other architects of Yogyakarta or indeed the architects of the UK GRA who can recognise how the goalposts have been shifted against women using these principles or laws could please pitch to a major UK paper or documentary maker about their regrets that would be powerful. I’m really glad he gets it now. Comes with some responsibilities though- it’s a unique position he and those people hold and gives them a platform.

Such an interesting article. Surely the fact that Wintemute now has doubts after the realisation of the conflict with women’s rights means that it should be revisited and revised?

In the Twitter comments in Julie Bindel’s account (where she posts this article) someone asks if it was pitched to mainstream media. The co-author says she pitched it to The Times without success.
Someone suggests trying The Spectator. Fingers crossed...

It makes me wonder what other human rights law or principles were drafted where everyone 'forgot' about women. Or any other group. This was 2006! Not the 19th century.

I'm wondering if the toilets quote was taken out of context. It's so dim.