Foucault

[lionheart]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/french-philosopher-michel-foucault-abused-boys-in-tunisia-6t5sj7jvw

And a great response from Allison Bailey.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1262487938073493512.html

Revolting.

I went through a Joe Orton phase a few years ago. Very ascerbic plays coming down hard on hypocrisy, etc. For those who don't know, he was a young gay playwright in the 1960s who was very much the rage until 1967 when he was murdered by his long-term partner Ken Halliwell who then killed himself.

Gay, fine. Consensual relationships with other adult men, fine. (Illegal in England until 1967, of course. But morally I don't see an issue.) What is NOT fine is that Orton and Halliwell went to Morocco and had sex with teenage boys. There's a film about Orton and Halliwell, Prick Up Your Ears, made in 1987, with a screenplay by Alan Bennett. Good film for the most part but it depicts the Moroccan trip as a joyous liberating escapade. I'd like to think that if a film about Orton was made now, that aspect of his life would be approached far more critically. But seeing the piece on Foucalt, maybe not.

Grim.

Latin! or Tobacco and Boys is a play by Stephen Fry, written in 1979 It was first performed at 'The Playroom', an L-shaped space in St Edwards Passage that belonged to Corpus Christi College, Cambridge. It is about life at the fictional Chartham Park Preparatory School For Boys, a prep school in England, and ends up in Morocco, via a homosexual relationship between a teacher and a 13-year-old student

The title derives from Christopher Marlowe's claim, reported by Richard Baines, that "All they that love not Tobacco and Boys are fools".

This is not a surprise to anyone who has read any Focault. He actively campaigned for acceptance of pedophiles. There are a lot of articles which use his theory to talk about a moral panic about child abuse and general paeodphile apology but I doubt he will be cancelled.

Dr Em has written a lot about this.

mobile.twitter.com/PankhurstEM/status/1376480576996315140

There are periods where paedophiles infiltrate mainstream (or at least try), whilst condemnations and police actions are going on. I have a feeling and I think many on this board will agree, that Silicone Valley (not necessarily the geographical place but - refer to Aimee C) will show itself to be a breading ground in an attempted take over, (look at other places) to influence and break down barriers. The concern should be in the move to prevent 'conversion therapy' which I can only think refers to children - is this the first safeguarding stage to overcome. Do we then move on to a child's right to agree to harmful medication etc and this is why the Bell case needs to be diluted (JM's recent attempt using the Family court) and how far is the step to then arguing that the child can consult to sex.

Does academia point out that each philosophy must always be looked at through the lens of its distasteful proponents. It seems to be clear though, that young people still know about their own personal safety and the idea that children could be socialised to accept sex at very young ages seems beyond belief

whoops 'conversion therapy' meant the trans idea. I understand the gay conversion need to be legislated against but am unsure why specifics are needed for trans

Our universities are steeped in queer theory.

Yes and they like the easy ride and the glamour of these annihilation theories. Have to keep the students interested and the cash coming in, even if they end up being unemployable (except in tech of course)

Sorman says he regrets not having reported Foucault to police at the time or denounced him in the press, calling his behaviour “ignoble” and “extremely morally ugly”.

As someone who went to a school where one particular teacher's pemchant for young boys was an open secret that none of the other staff ever thought to do a damned thing about, I can't say I'm terribly impressed by these "regrets" after the fact.

The problem with leaking what is effectively gossip like this so long after MC's death is that it will be very difficult to prove. Short of the boys concerned coming forward and describing what happened with some degree of consistency, I don't know how anyone would do that. Maybe I'm wrong and Sorman has well documented evidence to back up his claims. I hope so. But I can't say I have a lot of time for him failing to do anything about it when it could have been properly investigated and dealt with, and then claiming to be so outraged now that it can't.

However with paedophilia being the highly emotive subject that it is, most people will just judge MC guilty anyway. Eg this thread.

MF, not MC

Interesting to read your post, Turquoise. I also had a Joe Orton phase a few years ago - well, quite a long time ago, if I'm honest. It was back in the 80s! But I read the diaries, the John Lahr biography, the plays and loved them - particularly the diaries. And Prick Up Your Ears became one of my favourite films.

But you're right. The stuff about young boys in Morocco is massively uncomfortable. You can't justify it. And I remember at the time discussing Orton with an older colleague and even then he said he disliked Orton because he had sex with boys.

And then there's Oscar Wilde. Another difficult one.

Will this have any impact? I see people who would probably consider themselves on the Left praising William Burroughs. They think murdering his wife and then fleeing to Tangier to fuck boys adds to his 'cool' - the fawning Wikipedia page includes a quote that this woman murdering, child abusing, right wing, gun and knife obsessed rich kid was 'providing gay liberation with a delicious edge'. It now feels like umbrella terms like 'Queer' (prior to Queer Theory, the word's most famous literary use was as the title of a Burroughs novel) are being used in the way abusers previously used the church, BBC, charities or political parties to provide them with cover and shelter, silencing others because exposure of the bad apples will now taint everyone.

@RoyalCorgi

Interesting to read your post, Turquoise. I also had a Joe Orton phase a few years ago - well, quite a long time ago, if I'm honest. It was back in the 80s! But I read the diaries, the John Lahr biography, the plays and loved them - particularly the diaries. And Prick Up Your Ears became one of my favourite films.

But you're right. The stuff about young boys in Morocco is massively uncomfortable. You can't justify it. And I remember at the time discussing Orton with an older colleague and even then he said he disliked Orton because he had sex with boys.

And then there's Oscar Wilde. Another difficult one.

If the Wilde trial took place today chances are he'd probably still end up in prison. Like many teenagers I used to think he was wonderful, but reading more recently published books, the trial transcript and newer biographies I ended up thinking ugh - exploiting and abusing underage (by 21stc law) working class teenage boys and procuring children for his partner Douglas.

In fact so much of what I grew up thinking was arty, decadent and cool now looks like cover for abusers, really awful men (and occasionally women too) using the Arts as a glossy cover for predatory, controlling and shitty behaviour to women and young people.

@RoyalCorgi

Interesting to read your post, Turquoise. I also had a Joe Orton phase a few years ago - well, quite a long time ago, if I'm honest. It was back in the 80s! But I read the diaries, the John Lahr biography, the plays and loved them - particularly the diaries. And Prick Up Your Ears became one of my favourite films.

But you're right. The stuff about young boys in Morocco is massively uncomfortable. You can't justify it. And I remember at the time discussing Orton with an older colleague and even then he said he disliked Orton because he had sex with boys.

And then there's Oscar Wilde. Another difficult one.

Yes.The way the Moroccan trip is presented as a wonderful happy interlude and the Moroccan boys as cheeky, desirable scallywags. The bit when they're all sitting on the wall vying for Orton's and Halliwell's attention. And the bit when they are running down the beach into the sea. Even the famously troubled Halliwell looks happier. Sexual contact with these boys is presented as no more problematic than gay relationships between obviously consenting men. There are also racist undertones (this is somehow okay because it's Morocco.)

Oscar Wilde, indeed.

I felt very mixed about Orton's diaries. Well written, and a very interesting set of glimpses into a place and time. But sex with underage boys to one side for a moment, I came away from them feeling that Orton was a grubby sex-addict. His comments about women "having no use" also depressing.

Stephen Frears who directed Prick Up Your Ears, and Alan Bennett, and John Lahr. . . .are all admirable in their fields, etc but they come over as totally blind to some of the realities. I really don't think they see it.

Stephen Frears who directed Prick Up Your Ears, and Alan Bennett, and John Lahr. . . .are all admirable in their fields, etc but they come over as totally blind to some of the realities. I really don't think they see it

That is the feeling I get from a lot of prominent gay men, to be honest.

@Justhadathought

Stephen Frears who directed Prick Up Your Ears, and Alan Bennett, and John Lahr. . . .are all admirable in their fields, etc but they come over as totally blind to some of the realities. I really don't think they see it

That is the feeling I get from a lot of prominent gay men, to be honest.

Well, yes, I get that feeling from them too.

Don't know about Frears but don't think Lahr is gay, for what it's worth. Isn't he married to Connie Booth, John Cleese's ex-wife? Think I read that somewhere.

Unsurprising.

And, yes, clear links to the theory.

The question is: how come it all became popular and dominant as a mode of thought? Rather than staying a niche cul de sac?

Well, from a university-philosophy perspective, the big problem was that after WW2 there didn’t seem to be many places for thinking to “go” that weren’t either seen as tainted by Nazism (basically any attempt to make the world a better place...) or hopelessly old-fashioned (anything that could be seem as “Christian” or based on the old system of right and wrong). So much of the prior 150 years or so of philosophy had been mainly German and all of that was now suspect.
This was a major crisis and there was broadly speaking two responses. The first was attempting to explain “reality” by becoming more and more specific and technical, especially around language and word meanings.The other was post-structuralism, post-modernism and, later, queer theory. The basic idea behind it is that if the old belief sets lead to Nazism (and Communism) then there must be something fundamentally wrong with them and so everything in all of those beliefs must be questioned-even if that makes us uncomfortable. We have to break as many boundaries and turn as many norms upside down as possible.
Both of these “response mindsets” are still playing out in university departments today. To a certain extent, we’re very much still post WW2.

Very nice, Jeannie. Thank you for taking the time to write that. I enjoyed reading it and think it makes enormous sense. And I like your suggestion we are still in that post-2WW situation.

We could add in the 'failure' of 1968 and the subsequent re-grouping within universities and on the terrain of culture.

Any suggestions from anyone else as to why it had become so popular?

I felt very mixed about Orton's diaries. Well written, and a very interesting set of glimpses into a place and time. But sex with underage boys to one side for a moment, I came away from them feeling that Orton was a grubby sex-addict. His comments about women "having no use" also depressing.

Yes to all of that. The diaries are massively entertaining. But yes, he was a grubby sex-addict. And the boys stuff is horrible. Wilde is such an interesting case because even now people think of him as a gay martyr, cruelly destroyed by a homophobic Victorian establishment. It's odd that his reputation has somehow survived intact.

Aside from that, John Lahr is indeed married to Connie Booth.

But also ... amongst all the competing forms, post-2WW - why this? What did it offer that, say, various others didn't?

@Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud

I always felt concerned about the disruption of boundaries for disruption's sake. Some boundaries are important.

Me too.

Along with the idea of building a politics founded in the unconscious (I mean ... where to start with that?)

Likewise a politics of desire (what? all desires are 'good'?).

And general 'epater le bourgeoisie' (the bourgeoisie can be quite sensible, with surprising frequency).

It's as though they borrowed Nietzsche's scepticism, and then chose to apply it in a highly selective, profoundly unselfish-reflective way.

So weird.

What is this about Oscar Wilde?! Is it true? As a pp says his reputation is intact, I have never heard aspersions cast on him.

Also, no that you come to mention it, what exactly are the objections to the bourgeoisie?

Boundaries and meanings of words are essential for society to function well but I imagine chaos seems preferable to certain personality types. How is it so popular, social media is enforcing social control. Our innate human sociability is being used against us, our need to be on good terms with others, to be and be seen to be good people, valuable members of society with something to contribute. This has all been tied to being kind and accepting and not asking questions and making sure we don’t offend anyone by using triggering terms etc. I do actually believe more sinister types are actively nudging things in ways that suit their anti social agendas whenever they see the opportunity to do that. Ask no questions, no debate, individual feelings above objective facts, the oppression Olympics, the silencing of those perceived as privileged or wrong thinkers, individuals prioritised above communities and society does all tend to give ample opportunity to bad actors. Things are out of balance right now.

What is this about Oscar Wilde?! Is it true? As a pp says his reputation is intact, I have never heard aspersions cast on him.

It tends to be glossed over (if mentioned at all) as cultural relativism and the past being another country where child prostitution aka CSA flourished.

wrt Wilde - this quoted text should provide some leads (I don't have a better bookmark at present) - I can't comment on the 'rent boys' as such but the other young men were employees/similar with a power asymmetry:

“Bosie” Douglass also introduced Wilde to young male sex workers: tough youngsters around Piccadilly Circus, and a circle of “renters.” Wilde didn’t exclusively seek teenagers, but his pattern indicates he preferred them to grown men when he had the choice.

Many of these renters were later witnesses in Wilde’s trial for indecency. In many published accounts of the Wilde trials, the rent boys have been dismissed as rough trade whose statements are unreliable. But three boys gave statements who were not prostitutes—Walter Grainger, Edward Shelley, and Alphonse Conway—and their stories make uncomfortable reading.

The following shows photographs of child prostitutes/abuse victims:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4809114/Harrowing-images-Victorian-beggars-reveal-1800s-poverty.html

If you're not familiar with it, this is an interesting piece of activism to bring about a change in the law:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliza_Armstrong_case

From Andre Gide's autobiography:
Wilde took a key out of his pocket and showed me into a tiny apartment of two rooms… The youths followed him, each of them wrapped in a burnous that hid his face. Then the guide left us and Wilde sent me into the further room with little Mohammed and shut himself up in the other with the [other boy].

The passage continues, leaving no doubt that both men abused both boys. I do not wish to c&p the rest, thanks.