Are there any anti-abortion groups that are pro-trans?

[Jsmith71596]

One of the discussions I see a lot is that the trans movement conflicts with women's rights and one of the areas I am interested in learning more about is bodily autonomy and the right to abortion access. I am curious if there are any examples of prominent anti-abortion groups or public figures coming out in support of trans rights?

Kanye West , he is also a big fan of surrogacy.

I've never paid much attention to their stance on stuff like this before so I'll have to go take a look, thank you.

danapham-au.medium.com/why-lgbt-issues-are-pro-life-issues-cc533f435cd0

includes a link to:
www.plagal.org/

I'm confused by the 'pro trans' bit - unless you mean that women who are fighting desperately to retain needed rights for women are being 'anti trans' by not just surrendering their rights quietly?

I'd think you would find most women focused on women's rights to be passionate about bodily autonomy for women, their right to choose, and aware of and concerned by the immense complexities and dark parts of women's biological and life experiences with pregnancies and why they may have many reasons to consider ending one. Often with the best interests of the child in mind.

Women caring about women being a bit of a theme here.

Welcome to Mumsnet. I think you will find that the women of Mumsnet are all for bodily autonomy for women and also very much for people's human rights being respected.

Have you tried Google? Feminists don't tend to be anti abortion.

Would an anti-abortion group actually have an opinion on any other matter? I'd expect them not to.

Perhaps I phrased it poorly or my line of reasoning is flawed. I am firmly pro-choice and pro bodily autonomy. The vast, vast majority of anti-abortion groups are anti-feminist and I did not intend to suggest otherwise.

I have seen plenty of discussion about how the current trans moment is or isn't harmful to women's rights and feminism in general. If some of the trans movement can be viewed as eroding or endangering women's rights, I was wondering if there was any overlap with anti-abortion groups as an example of this?

As I said, my entire line of reasoning here could be fundamentally flawed. Basically, if both stances are anti-feminist, are there examples of people or groups who take both?

You'll find that men can be quite varied and creative in exactly which of women's rights offend them, and which they don't care enough about to oppose.

Thus, you'll get religious conservatives who espouse sexist roles, believe women should know their place, oppose abortion rights, but find nonconforming children so offensive that they prefer them to transition rather than be a butch lesbian girl or an effeminate gay boy. Their view of women is that we are explicitly a subordinate role.

And then at the other end of the spectrum, are extreme 'liberals' who are disinterested in removing abortion rights, because it affords them a tremendous opportunity to commandeer dialogue about female biology and insist that there is no such thing as a female body or female reproductive rights, or women's healthcare. Their agenda is to negate the existence of the female sex class, deny female bodily needs, and make it impossible for us to discuss ourselves in a way that distinguishes us from them.

They're both simply two sides of the same misogynistic coin.

The first acknowledges our sex's bodily existence so they can then shackle us to their chosen limitations. And they are so wedded to those limitations and conformity that they'll sometimes make an exception for the nonconforming child or adult in order to shunt them into conforming to the opposite set of rules. But the rules must stand.

The second prefers to control our ability to talk about ourselves, distinguish ourselves from them, or exclude them in any way. They'll allow us bodily autonomy (for now) so long as we accept their price, which is that our bodies, lives and sex become nameless, and all our uniquely female needs are rebranded as universal human needs.

Of course, once the second achieve the complete dismantling of our ability to discuss our sex, they would hypothetically be free to go on to then rescind our bodily freedoms like abortion rights, on account of it no longer being a particular legally protected need of a particular sex, but instead a universal human state that men also have a say in.

And there won't be much we can do at that point if the biological sex class formerly known as women has suddenly disappeared from all our laws, and been replaced with self identified'women' who can and do speak for us and against our interests, because they are not in fact our sex at all.

Have you tried Google? Feminists don't tend to be anti abortion.

Conversely, people obsessed with controlling other people's bodies, don't tend to be pro-trans.

there won't be much we can do at that point if the biological sex class formerly known as women has suddenly disappeared from all our laws

Well there will. We're 52% of the population, it just requires enough of that biological sex class to wake up, experience the thundering locomotive heading down the track the result of not paying attention and being kind instead of engaging the brain, and start getting pissed off. When you drive a major section of your population over the edge you have a massive, massive problem; which is why many of us here have been saying for years, this will end nowhere with sunshine and rainbows for anyone.

Lots of 'sex positivity' which is largely about removing boundaries and social norms (see the anarchy links to the lobby), which primarily reframe things to benefit male people at the expense of silencing and devaluing female ones. Likewise surrogacy: the rights of female uterus bearers and children don't figure largely anywhere in this. You may notice a glaring lack of equality and reciprocal values being demonstrated in the narrative.

Incidentally those driving the 'there is no such thing as biology/ no sex class/ woman is a feeling not a reality' muddled narrative absolutely know what one is when they want a surrogate or an egg donor, and have no difficulty at all knowing who to listen to with great respect and value all feelings and wishes of, and who to tell their problems, feelings, voices and needs don't matter and shut up or [insert death/rape threat here] Likewise don't assign labels to (some) people they haven't chosen and don't reduce (some) people to their biological parts, but other people are now cervix havers and uterus bearers and resistance to obediently taking on the label is evidence of unacceptable behaviour and prejudice. [confusion]

None of it hangs together. The only consistent logic that links it at all is that everything always a shifting constellation that ensures female people are suppressed and subordinated to the wishes of male people and not allowed an independent voice.

In terms of language use, the current demand to shift to 'gender-neutral' language when discussing subjects which pertain to sex does imo indeed allows for the erosion of women's ability to discuss their own bodies and experiences with precision and for the law to protect us. For example, if an abortion is something which might be required by 'people' rather than 'women', that creates a linguistic loophole for men to insert themselves and demand that their opinions are heard.

I think your reasoning on this is a bit random.

But if I recall correctly, there is a pro-life group within the American Democratic party membership, they might also tend to be pro trans.

I have a friend who is a similar combination, a Democrat party member, generally quite progressive, but also tend to hold a pro-life position, and she's very pro trans. Like a lot of American progressives she sees that as being part of the LGBTQ+ family and very much a progressive position. She wouldn't see it as all connected to her pro-life views though, and I tend to think it isn't for people with her POV, so I'm not convinced you can draw some kind of causation or correlation there.

Its not a group but Iran?

@elgreco

Kanye West , he is also a big fan of surrogacy.

He is a very mentally unwell man and makes lots of illogical statements.

@Hibari

Have you tried Google? Feminists don't tend to be anti abortion.

Conversely, people obsessed with controlling other people's bodies, don't tend to be pro-trans.

Could you explain what you mean?

@MaudTheInvincible well put and not something I had considered.

Basically, if both stances are anti-feminist, are there examples of people or groups who take both?

I don't think anyone opposes women's rights as an end in itself. Their intolerance stems fro.taking person beliefs to an extreme.

I'm not sure either stance is inherently anti-feminist. It's possible to disagree with abortion on religious grounds while respecting the right of women to choose and plenty manage to oppose transphobia while also respecting women's rights.

In the West those who criticise transgenderism as a lifestyle choice often also oppose abortion because the believe in 'traditional' gender roles. In Islamic countries you are more likely to see an acceptance of transitioned women from imams who oppose abortion but I'm sure it's also the case in some conservative Christian group somewhere.

I'm not sure accepting total sublimation of people into the stereotyped roles of the opposite sex is really pro trans rights. It's more like a way of dealing with the homosexuality 'problem' for those people.

I'm not sure accepting total sublimation of people into the stereotyped roles of the opposite sex is really pro trans rights.

This is what I can’t get my head around with the TWAW stance. It doesn’t actually seem very pro trans.

Conversely, people obsessed with controlling other people's bodies, don't tend to be ....

I'm not using the phrase 'pro trans' as it's daft. No one is 'anti trans', women needing and having rights and biologically existing is not 'anti trans', I have no idea what 'pro trans' even means really.

But in rebuttal to that point:

• cotton ceiling
• lesbian females need to 'learn to cope with' what is essentially heterosexual sex (a fantastically misogynist view that appears to feel that enjoying sex is not a female person's entitlement in life, its a social duty they must learn to endure for the sake of others?)
• no right to privacy, dignity, any feelings of humiliation or right to remove consent to toilet, undress in sight of, shower with, sleep alongside, have intimate medical procedures discussed and done on the other side of a thin curtain from male born people whether they are willing or not under penalty of hate crime
• no right to join protests or even peaceful meetings to discuss needs and issues specific to biological females without enduring fury, harassment, kettling, smoke bombs, death and rape threats and punching in the face
• no right to any female only group for anything at all including medical needs which only happen to biological females: male supervision is mandatory if any male wishes to supervise.

Who has issues with controlling other people's bodies again?

It isn't GC feminists. Who largely want their bodies and everyone else's bodies left in peace, personal boundaries respected, personal sense and choice of identity, language and safe spaces respected for all instead of just for some, and children protected from making potentially lifetime damaging decisions.

Hear hear, Michelle

Basically, if both stances are anti-feminist, are there examples of people or groups who take both

Being 'pro women' and 'feminist' need not necessarily mean the same thing; even if they do align in many respects. For some people pro-life arguments are based on pro- women ( female/motherhood) sentiments, as they see and understand them.

@Jsmith71596

I am curious if there are any examples of prominent anti-abortion groups or public figures coming out in support of trans rights?

Short answer, No.
Long answer, Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Groups who support transgender rights almost invariably support reproductive rights. I'm sure you'll find individual exceptions.

Groups who support transgender rights almost invariably support reproductive rights. I'm sure you'll find individual exceptions

Being in favour of Universal human Rights is not the preserve of the 'progressive left'. Most people are, of whatever persuasion.

Trans rights are something different, and are not about having to win the same civil rights afforded to other groups. Trans people already have equal rights - certainly in Britain, the West generally.

The Human Rights Act 1998 sets out the fundamental rights and freedoms that everyone in the UK is entitled to. It incorporates the rights set out in the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) into domestic British law. The Human Rights Act came into force in the UK in October 2000

What human rights are covered by the Act?

Article 2: Right to life
Article 3: Freedom from torture and inhuman or degrading treatment
Article 4: Freedom from slavery and forced labour
Article 5: Right to liberty and security
Article 6: Right to a fair trial
Article 7: No punishment without law
Article 8: Respect for your private and family life, home and correspondence
Article 9: Freedom of thought, belief and religion
Article 10: Freedom of expression
Article 11: Freedom of assembly and association
Article 12: Right to marry and start a family
Article 14: Protection from discrimination in respect of these rights and freedoms
Protocol 1, Article 1: Right to peaceful enjoyment of your property
Protocol 1, Article 2: Right to education
Protocol 1, Article 3: Right to participate in free elections
Protocol 13, Article 1: Abolition of the death penalty