Transgender people will be protected under plans to ban conversion therapy - says Truss

OppsUpsSide · 27/03/2021 00:11

Have they clarified what qualifies as conversion therapy?

NiceGerbil · 27/03/2021 03:03

I find it interesting that the focus is pretty much entirely on trans people with LGB people getting barely a mention.

'“I’m very clear that we want to make sure that transgender people are free to live their lives and don’t face the type of horrific conversion therapy that currently has been going on here in the UK.”

What do they mean by this? What has been going on?

Is this about forcing children to adhere to gender norms? Is there a religious component as there has been with conversion 'therapy' for homosexual people?

I have no idea. It would be useful to understand more. I might Google.

'Stonewall added: “It is vital that the forthcoming legislative ban promised by government protects trans people from conversion therapy in all its forms, including medical, psychiatric, psychological, religious and cultural practices.”'

This is very troubling. Given what i have read, it means outlawing any kind of councelling.

The thing that struck me is that everyone is raised to a greater or lesser extent to conform to gender role. Plenty struggle against it, many women, many feminists. I did.

So is the pervasive pressure to conform that goes through the whole of society going to be illegal?

McPancreas · 27/03/2021 04:14

The vast majority of people are rightfully against conversion therapy often utilised by religious fundamentalists for 'fixing' homosexuality.

No doubt trans people are subject to the same unacceptable treatment given the sort of people carrying this practice will still perceive the 'patient' as homosexual regardless of how they identify.

The above should be against the law however the pernicious part of this is that TRAs are being deliberately obtuse about the expansion of the term conversion therapy to include actual therapy regarding body issues, sexuality or anything that goes against the current gendered soul dogma.

AnyOldPrion · 27/03/2021 06:26

”I’m very clear that we want to make sure that transgender people are free to live their lives and don’t face the type of horrific conversion therapy that currently has been going on here in the UK.”

Details of this current wave of horrific conversion therapy are necessary to unpack this statement. I have no idea what she is talking about, which is concerning. Does she have evidence for this, or has she been told about it by the usual unreliable sources, I wonder?

WarriorN · 27/03/2021 06:47

Given some countries encourage (force?) / convert gay people to become trans they are so homophobic, this needs an extremely careful analysis.

InsideNumberNine · 27/03/2021 08:44

I’m yet to see evidence of what constitutes trans conversion therapy in terms of a psychological approach...

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/03/2021 08:48

The above should be against the law however the pernicious part of this is that TRAs are being deliberately obtuse about the expansion of the term conversion therapy to include actual therapy regarding body issues, sexuality or anything that goes against the current gendered soul dogma.

Indeed.

highame · 27/03/2021 09:15

Given all the issues related to teenage girls and their gender, I cannot see Lizz Truss blocking therapists from discussing trans teen issues as this includes a high number of autistic kids. She would be setting them on a pathway where drugs and surgery might be the outcome. Given that the public are not in this space, I think she will ensure 'conversion' is properly thought out. However, there will be a lot of Stonewalling so we'll see where that takes us - a long way to go on this road

midgeswithnofingernails · 27/03/2021 09:16

Well I think they should totally ban conversion therapy, there is no need to change anything about trans people including their bodies

gardenbird48 · 27/03/2021 09:28

@midgeswithnofingernails

Well I think they should totally ban conversion therapy, there is no need to change anything about trans people including their bodies

Are you meaning that a medical transition is a form of conversion therapy here? If I understand you correctly, I would agree that it has been used in some cases where a parent would rather have a straight trans child than a gay child.

I’m not sure you could ban all transitioning because there are some people that undoubtedly find comfort in presenting as a member of the opposite sex but I think careful psychiatric exploration before any transition would be helpful.

midgeswithnofingernails · 27/03/2021 09:32

There are people who find it comfortable to be ultra thin
Dies not mean we support that

People do need much more support to be happy in themselves , to understand that society expectations are not hard and fast rules

Olderstyle1 · 27/03/2021 09:53

This was posted on the Merched Cymru FB page yesterday - references Transgender Trend and the Society for Evidence Based Gender Medicine. The dangers of including gender identity in the ban are so obvious. But evidence/reality don't seem to feature much in this campaign.

AFFIRMATION: THE NEW CONVERSION THERAPY
Today Liz Truss appeared to suggest that gender identity would be included in legislation to ban 'conversion therapy'.
Such a ban would potentially criminalise counsellors who wished to treat the whole person, to explore the impact of co-morbidities and to consider all the factors that might be contributing to their gender distress. Critically, it would outlaw any approach that allowed for the (highly likely) possibility that the patient would, post puberty, come to terms with their biological sex, and their sexual orientation. Some 90% of young people do just that.
Children and young people with gender dysphoria need and deserve supportive, compassionate, and evidence-based care. By conflating ethical psychotherapy with conversion therapy, the proposed legislation will put that care, and gender non-conforming young people, at serious risk.
Please read and share our paper on this topic
AFFIRMATION: THE NEW CONVERSION THERAPY.
merchedcymru.wales/where-we-stand-on-conversion.../

Olderstyle1 · 27/03/2021 09:57

@AnyOldPrion

”I’m very clear that we want to make sure that transgender people are free to live their lives and don’t face the type of horrific conversion therapy that currently has been going on here in the UK.”

Details of this current wave of horrific conversion therapy are necessary to unpack this statement. I have no idea what she is talking about, which is concerning. Does she have evidence for this, or has she been told about it by the usual unreliable sources, I wonder?

me too AnyOld You'd have thought that the media would be all over a 'wave of horrific conversion therapy' incidents. And yet I've heard nothing.

allmywhat · 27/03/2021 09:57

I’m not in favour of banning adult transition, but I think any objective look at the available evidence suggests it should not be funded by the NHS. A recent high profile study found no evidence of benefits from cross-sex hormones (and the supply of hormones is low so they should be rationed and prioritised for the people who ARE helped by them.) The study wouldn’t have been published, certainly not in the high profile journal it was accepted to, except for the part where it did find evidence of minor psychological benefits from reassignment surgery. But they had to retract that bit because their analysis was wrong.

Has anyone ever seen substantive evidence of long term benefits from medical transitioning? I appreciate that there are short term benefits.

Justhadathought · 27/03/2021 10:03

If conversion means changing one thing into another...isn't that the exact definition and goal of transgenderism?

The definition is encapsulated in the prefix 'trans'. Transforming and converting the superficial bodily characteristics from one appearance to another; or else just a magical, intangible 'inner' conversion which is reflected through the use of pronouns and names.

Honestly, this is all so woolly and unthought through as to be ridiculous. Stonewalled.

NotBadConsidering · 27/03/2021 10:03

I personally believe in the concept of sex conversion therapy for children. It has all the hallmarks of traditional conversion therapy. Take something that is immutable - a person’s sex - and try and change it to something it isn’t based on ideological beliefs and the idea that there is something “wrong” with the child, whilst causing physical harm to the child.

However when the legislation in Queensland was passed, it contained a deliberate part that exempt people from such accusations. Which is convenient .

Overall however, it’s reasonable. Importantly it states what is not conversion therapy when it comes to gender, which includes actions that could be perceived as not affirming.

healthlegal.com.au/current-news/conversion-therapy-banned-queensland/

Tibtom · 27/03/2021 10:04

Stonewall added: “It is vital that the forthcoming legislative ban promised by government protects trans people from conversion therapy in all its forms, including medical, psychiatric, psychological, religious and cultural practices.”

Cultural practices? Gender is cultural practices. But surely if this is applied logically it means any attempt to steer girls away from sex stereotype would be banned? All those girls into STEM programs? Attempts to encourage women into the boardroom or preventing teenage pregnancies?

nauticant · 27/03/2021 10:05

Have they clarified what qualifies as conversion therapy?

No, they don't, and they're keen not to. This is because the understandable revulsion at LGB conversion therapy is being used as a Trojan Horse to get a blanket ban of all "conversion therapy", aiming to get affirmation-only therapy to be put into UK law as the only permitted therapy for trans people, and also to make it illegal to provide assistance to detransitioners.

Here's some interesting background:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000sz1y

As 'conversion therapy' faces a UK ban, Caitlin Benedict explores the heinous practices that LGBT+ people were subjected to with the guise of changing their sexuality.

A queer BBC presenter discusses conversion therapy with a queer historian. The actual evidence of harm is about LGB. All the concern is about LGBT. To their credit towards the end of the programme they do briefly acknowledge that a broad ban on "conversion therapy" could be harmful to trans people and to their therapists.

NotBadConsidering · 27/03/2021 10:10

From my link above (my bold):

“Notably, conversion therapy does not include a practice by a health service provider that, in the provider’s reasonable professional judgement:

• is part of the clinically appropriate assessment, diagnosis or treatment of a person, or clinically appropriate support for a person; or
• enables or facilitates the provision of a health service for a person in a manner that is safe and appropriate; or
• is necessary to comply with the provider’s legal or professional obligations.

The following are examples of the types of practices to which conversion therapy does not include:

• assisting a person who is undergoing a gender transition; or
• assisting a person who is considering undergoing a gender transition; or
• assisting a person to express their gender identity; or
• providing acceptance, support and understanding of a person; or
• facilitating a person’s coping skills, social support and identity exploration and development.

In addition, the above exclusions will protect practitioners who, acting reasonably, in good faith and in accordance with professional standards, treat a patient in a manner that could be perceived as not affirming or supporting their sexual orientation or gender identity, for example by advising a patient of risks of having surgery when they have a pre-exiting medical condition.”

MichelleofzeResistance · 27/03/2021 10:13

If this means conversion therapy in the sense of forced pressure to stop being trans or stop being gay or forcibly realign with what a church or family member sees as 'right' then good. Absolutely.

If on the other hand this takes no account of subtlety or allows for questioning, exploring and distinguishing other needs in a decision to transition (or be gay, I had a therapist help me look into this for myself as an L person and it was supportive, not at all 'don't be gay') then there's a problem. Keira Bell for example raises this as something she feels she should have been offered and was not.

As always, there's a risk of very black and white rigid thinking being pushed, and words warped out of normal shared meaning to accommodate a political agenda. I hope Truss is aware of the subtleties of this and the need to be responsible and careful not to accidentally throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Justhadathought · 27/03/2021 10:15

This is because the understandable revulsion at LGB conversion therapy is being used as a Trojan Horse

This seems to be the modus operandi, full stop. Piggy backing in on every other inter-sectionalist category and attempting to make itself indistinguishable or invisible as a discrete category. Every other grouping has its own organisations; its own specific services; its own integrity.

MichelleofzeResistance · 27/03/2021 10:24

What it comes down to is the extreme sensitivity to and discomfort with anything that questions or is uncomfortable to hear and think about alongside a chosen identity. As in the recent ONS debacle, the stressfulness of even hearing debate and other people's needs and views on the situation was regarded as intolerable to expect some participants to be exposed to. This is across the board: even tolerating the knowledge that a provision exists for others is too threatening.

However from a MH perspective, learning to tolerate some emotional discomfort and cope with it is a very key part of supporting people. Not every uncomfortable feeling is a full blown crisis requiring urgent accommodation and input. And other people have rights too and boundaries have to be respected, and stressful feelings cannot be a reason to try and whackamole all triggers out of existence: it's not a realistic goal and it continues to make the vulnerable person powerless and reliant on the rest of the world managing their environment for them. This emotional stress is something I don't doubt the severity of and I'm sympathetic to, but it cannot be the trump card to just prevent sorting out what are needs and what actually is not in everyone's best interests and creates a balanced, fact based situation that meets all needs. Other people have feelings and needs and rights too.

Manderleyagain · 27/03/2021 10:31

The legislation will have to be very carefully worded with lots of caveats so make sure it doesn't outlaw things which are genuinely helpful. Or to make sure it doesn't give the impression that it might have outlawed some things, which results in therapists having their hands tied by their professional bodies or their own fear. I agree no one should be trying to force anyone to stop identifying as trans or stop being gay.

This whole area needs good definitions.

Manderleyagain · 27/03/2021 10:34

the stressfulness of even hearing debate and other people's needs and views on the situation was regarded as intolerable to expect some participants to be exposed to. This is across the board: even tolerating the knowledge that a provision exists for others is too threatening.

This is one of the most eye opening aspects of the way this issue is panning out. Not just that this is the attitude, but that grown up people and institutions go along with this.

MichelleofzeResistance · 27/03/2021 10:42

And what you see are nice people, deeply sympathetic to those suffering and being driven by deep emotional stress, who have no experience or training to know the necessity for boundaries and of supporting people living with this kind of stress to cope with them. Plus a powerful political agenda behind it which is actually quite good at making the best of opportunities in this.

As parents you quickly learn: you cannot child proof the world. All you can do is help world-proof your child.