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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Parents Can Consent to Children Being Treated With Puberty Blockers: High Court

25 replies

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 26/03/2021 17:38

Parents of transgender children can consent to treatment with puberty blockers on their child’s behalf without a court’s approval, a High Court judge has ruled. Mrs Justice Lieven gave the ruling on Friday in the case of a 15-year-old, identified as XY, who was born a boy but lives as a girl and is undergoing treatment with puberty blockers.

www.medscape.com/viewarticle/948171?src=wnl_newsalrt_uk_210326_MSCPEDIT&uac=26838CR&impID=3273438&faf=1

The child's parents asked for a High Court ruling in case their GP stopped prescribing puberty blockers as a result of Keira Bell's case.

Mrs Justice Lieven said she “self-evidently” agrees with the conclusions in Ms Bell’s case, having been one member of the court which gave the ruling, and that nothing in her decision on XY’s case is intended to depart from it.

But she ruled that, whether or not XY is considered legally competent to choose to take puberty blockers, “her parents retain the parental right to consent to that treatment”.

Rather sad. I was hoping Keira's case might protect children from being prescribed puberty blockers. Parents could have given all the affirmation in the world, while silently thanking god their child couldn't get the drugs.

Needless to say, the teenager’s mother said her daughter had always only been interested in girls’ toys and clothes absolute proof of femaleness [eye-roll] and was “utterly miserable, became very withdrawn, and was shy and unhappy” during a period when she tried to conform to a more “male” stereotype.

So why not let children dress as they like, play with the toys they like, and not upset them by trying to force them into gender stereotypes?

OP posts:
Hibari · 26/03/2021 17:52

English NHS still operating about 10 years behind the curve on trans treatment but this is absolutely a step back in the right direction.

Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud · 26/03/2021 17:56

@Hibari

English NHS still operating about 10 years behind the curve on trans treatment but this is absolutely a step back in the right direction.
What country are they behind? And what would be the optimum? Sexual reassignment surgery for 10 year old MtFs? Mastectomies for 13 year olds? Facial feminisation surgery for 14 year olds?
EdgeOfACoin · 26/03/2021 18:05

Hibari

Can you explain how the following has nothing to do with gender stereotypes:

The teenager’s mother said her daughter had always only been interested in girls’ toys and clothes and was “utterly miserable, became very withdrawn, and was shy and unhappy” during a period when she tried to conform to a more “male” stereotype.

WombOfOnesOwn · 26/03/2021 18:07

I'm sure no abusive parents will use this to keep their victim small and childlike for longer. Nope. Ignore the Tavistock personnel saying this is already happening.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 26/03/2021 18:20

Hibari, could you explain this, please? Why not let children dress as they like, play with the toys they like, and not upset them by trying to force them into gender stereotypes?

Thanks.

OP posts:
nauticant · 26/03/2021 18:27

OP, there's a much longer discussion here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4202823-Good-Law-project-have-succeeded

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 27/03/2021 08:19

Thanks, Nauticant. I didn’t recognise it by the title. I thought the Good Law Project was doing something, you know, good. Why do these people never step back and ask themselves “Are we really doing the right thing here?”.

OP posts:
Terranean · 27/03/2021 09:04

Treating people for how well they fit gender stereotypes is a step backwards in history.

Some papers from the court ruling on the other thread. The judge portraying parents as waiting but it seems the social transition with name change was in 2016, if the child is 15, that means the parents agreement and the child ‘coming out’ was very close in time.

I was reading this today
lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/03/lauren-black-i-am-a-butch-lesbian-i-live-with-gender-dysphoria-i-do-not-believe-my-deep-discomfort-with-my-female-body-means-that-i-should-take-steps-to-change-it/?fbclid=IwAR2uol221xTa1iqAOmrcA2_BbAeizwduHzDbkyd2uSNQvW_ksGndRPQCgx8

That’s for me the right direction

caringcarer · 27/03/2021 10:14

I think it is a slippery slope. It fails to account for the many children who want to be opposite to birth gender and so dress as opposite gender but then several years later change their mind. I have seen a couple of those children in my Tutor Group and taught one also. Giving these puberty blocker drugs can do a lot of damage. I witnessed a boy in my teaching group who was transitioning to a girl who had been given hormone blockers at 13 and at 17 he was suicidal. He wanted to be a boy but when he stopped taking hormone blockers at 17 he was so much smaller than other boys in his year group. Before he received hormone blockers he was in step with other boys in his year group and reasonably popular. At 17 he had no friends at school, was much smaller and under developed. The girls were not friends with him either and after counseling between 16 and 17 he decided he did not want to be a girl any more. His mother was not happy with his decision and he later told school puberty blockers were his Mother's idea and he went along with it. He went to live with his paternal grandparents as he felt uncomfortable at home with his Mum. He moved schools so I don't know what happened after that.

Whatwouldscullydo · 27/03/2021 10:21

According to the Tavistock weren't weren't parents the problem ?

In some cases wasn't homophobia and abuse suspected ?

How does this help children?

Tavistock own study recorded zero improvement in their wellbeing having taken puberty blockers and confirmed that very nearly all who take them go on to take cross sex hormones and there's no follow up.

Who's going to protect the children now Sad

SunnySideAndMarmite · 27/03/2021 10:43

Oh shit.
There is a child I am extremely worried about. Doesn't actually have sex dysphoria, just vaguely mentioned wanting to be the opposite sex as a young child (KS1!) after being exposed to stereotypes at school and his mother immediately went all "affirmation of gender identity" so this child will now think they are the opposite sex and presumably develop issues with their body as it doesn't do what they want it to in puberty. Mother is apparently incapable of critical thinking and the type to jump in and DO stuff without thinking it through. Fuck. Fuck. (Father was gender critical, which is how I know about this, as was sought out for advice. But corralled along into what mother wants, poor chap slowly going mad being forced into abusing his own child with this nonsense.)
What is wrong with people? Do they really think that all of us who said as kids "I want to be a boy" should have been transitioned? No questioning of gender stereotypes?
(Particularly bonkers in the case I mention as mother has always been gender nonconforming. What the fuck is she thinking?!!! Maybe she thinks she's a man. Or non binary. More attention that way, I suppose.)

SunnySideAndMarmite · 27/03/2021 10:44

Sorry for rant Blush
So, so worried about this child. I celebrated the previous ruling thinking they were safe.

AdHominemNonSequitur · 27/03/2021 11:23

I do worry about Munchausen's and homophobic parent type scenarios, however there is and always has been a significant cohort of MtF trans girls, who will persist no matter what and for who transition is the correct route and male puberty would significantly negatively affect their chances of looking female.

I welcomed the Keira Bell judgement because of the 4000 percent increase in mainly ROGD girls, but did think it was a heavy price to pay for the others(I want to say boys but you know what I mean).

The alternate cohort accounting for the massive increase of mtf trans women, would be presenting post puberty, so can we not be fairly sure in this scenario that male children are less likely to regret, desist or detransition.

Happy to be corrected if I'm missing something, but I think overall, kids not being able to consent, but their parents retaining the ability is a reasonable compromise.

Some will fall through the net either way, no system is perfect.

Whatwouldscullydo · 27/03/2021 11:31

The alternate cohort accounting for the massive increase of mtf trans women, would be presenting post puberty, so can we not be fairly sure in this scenario that male children are less likely to regret, desist or detransition

The lack of development causes problems with future surgeries on account of having nothing to work with. So it really doesn't do the males any good . And the females end up shorter so not good for passing as a man either.

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 27/03/2021 11:36

AdHominem

Until about 2009 the number of children being referred to GIDS was steady at 50-70 a year over many years. Most will desist through puberty. So there never was a 'significant cohort ' - just a tiny handful for whom transition was a last resort.

nauticant · 27/03/2021 11:38

If you think that in some cases puberty blockers serve to entrench gender dysphoria in children, where it would otherwise fade, ones perspective shifts considerably.

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 27/03/2021 11:38

There is a longer thread on this where the decision is taken apart. It's rather less than the headlines might have you believe, and simply confirms the existing legal position.

R0wantrees · 27/03/2021 11:40

Happy to be corrected if I'm missing something, but I think overall, kids not being able to consent, but their parents retaining the ability is a reasonable compromise.

Some will fall through the net either way, no system is perfect.

Previous thread
"Professor Carl Heneghan was interviewed on last night's Panorama & as a consequence of his analysis concluded that 'informed consent is not possible'

BMJ EBM Spotlight paper:
'Gender-affirming hormone in children and adolescents – Evidence review'
Posted on 25th February 2019

(extract)
"Gender dysphoria occurs when a person experiences discomfort or distress because of a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity. Gender dysphoria can arise in childhood and adolescent which raises many questions about how best to handle the condition. This post sets out the current evidence for gender-affirming hormones in adolescents and children to aid decision making. (continues)

"Conclusions

There are significant problems with how the evidence for Gender-affirming cross-sex hormone has been collected and analysed that prevents definitive conclusions to be drawn. Similar to puberty blockers, the evidence is limited by small sample sizes; retrospective methods, loss of considerable numbers of patients in follow-up. The majority of studies also lack a control group (only two studies used controls). Interventions have heterogeneous treatment regimes complicating comparisons between studies. Also adherence to the interventions are either not reported or at best inconsistent. Subjective outcomes, which are highly prevalent in the studies, are also prone to bias due to lack of blinding, and many effects can be explained by regression to the mean.

The development of these interventions should, therefore, occur in the context of research. Treatments for under 18 gender dysphoric children and adolescents remain largely experimental. There are a large number of unanswered questions that include the age at start, reversibility; adverse events, long term effects on mental health, quality of life, bone mineral density, osteoporosis in later life and cognition. We wonder whether off label use is appropriate and justified for drugs such as spironolactone which can cause substantial harms, including death. We are also ignorant of the long-term safety profiles of the different GAH regimens. The current evidence base does not support informed decision making and safe practice."
blogs.bmj.com/bmjebmspotlight/2019/02/25/gender-affirming-hormone-in-children-and-adolescents-evidence-review/
(continues)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3518188-BMJ-Prof-Carl-Heneghan-Evidence-Based-Medicine-Oxford-Panorama-Trans-Kids-Gender-affirming-hormone-in-children-and-adolescents-Evidence-review-concludes-There-are-significant-problems

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 27/03/2021 17:43

SunnySide, that sounds horrific. Sounds as if the father needs support in protecting this child. Can you direct him to Transgender Trend? they are likely to know of support groups and other resources. Good luck.

transgendertrend.com/

There’s more on the other Mumsnet thread about the legal situation: apparently this case doesn’t change anything, just clarifies that parents can give consent. The one to watch will be the appeal against Keira’s victory, due in June.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4202823-Good-Law-project-have-succeeded

OP posts:
RobinMoiraWhite · 27/03/2021 22:23

@AdHominemNonSequitur

I do worry about Munchausen's and homophobic parent type scenarios, however there is and always has been a significant cohort of MtF trans girls, who will persist no matter what and for who transition is the correct route and male puberty would significantly negatively affect their chances of looking female.

I welcomed the Keira Bell judgement because of the 4000 percent increase in mainly ROGD girls, but did think it was a heavy price to pay for the others(I want to say boys but you know what I mean).

The alternate cohort accounting for the massive increase of mtf trans women, would be presenting post puberty, so can we not be fairly sure in this scenario that male children are less likely to regret, desist or detransition.

Happy to be corrected if I'm missing something, but I think overall, kids not being able to consent, but their parents retaining the ability is a reasonable compromise.

Some will fall through the net either way, no system is perfect.

Very reasonable position.
R0wantrees · 27/03/2021 23:30

From the judgement:
(extracts)
"All parties agreed that if I proceeded to hear this case then I was in effect bound by Bell, and that they were not seeking to argue before me that any part of it was wrong, although the Second and Third Respondents would do so in the Court of Appeal. I should be entirely clear that even if I was not in effect bound by Bell, I self-evidently entirely agree with its analysis and conclusions having been one member of the Divisional Court. Nothing that is said below is intended to depart, to even the smallest extent, from anything that was said in Bell.

"There are a number of aspects of the treatment, as referred to in Bell, which are relevant to the issues before me: the effect of PBs [48]-[59]; reversibility [60]–[68]; the evidence base and whether PBs are "experimental" treatment [69]-[74]; and the persistence of the symptomology [75]-[77].

The Court's conclusions relevant to this part of the case are at [134]-[137] and state:
"134. The starting point is to consider the nature of the treatment proposed. The administration of PBs to people going through puberty is a very unusual treatment for the following reasons. Firstly, there is real uncertainty over the short and long-term consequences of the treatment with very limited evidence as to its efficacy, or indeed quite what it is seeking to achieve. This means it is, in our view, properly described as experimental treatment. Secondly, there is a lack of clarity over the purpose of the treatment: in particular, whether it provides a "pause to think" in a "hormone neutral" state or is a treatment to limit the effects of puberty, and thus the need for greater surgical and chemical intervention later, as referred to in the Health Research Authority report. Thirdly, the consequences of the treatment are highly complex and potentially lifelong and life changing in the most fundamental way imaginable. The treatment goes to the heart of an individual's identity, and is thus, quite possibly, unique as a medical treatment.

135. Furthermore, the nature and the purpose of the medical intervention must be considered. The condition being treated, GD, has no direct physical manifestation. In contrast, the treatment provided for that condition has direct physical consequences, as the medication is intended to and does prevent the physical changes that would otherwise occur within the body, in particular by stopping the biological and physical development that would otherwise take place at that age. There is also an issue as to whether GD is properly categorised as a psychological condition, as the DSM-5 appears to do, although we recognise there are those who would not wish to see the condition categorised in that way. Be that as it may, in our judgment for the reasons already identified, the clinical intervention we are concerned with here is different in kind to other treatments or clinical interventions. In other cases, medical treatment is used to remedy, or alleviate the symptoms of, a diagnosed physical or mental condition, and the effects of that treatment are direct and usually apparent. The position in relation to puberty blockers would not seem to reflect that description.

136. Indeed the consequences which flow from taking PBs for GD and which must be considered in the context of informed consent, fall into two (interlinking) categories. Those that are a direct result of taking the PBs themselves, and those that follow on from progression to Stage 2, that is taking cross-sex hormones. The defendant and the Trusts argue that Stage 1 and 2 are entirely separate; a child can stop taking PBs at any time and that Stage 1 is fully reversible. It is said therefore the child needs only to understand the implications of taking PBs alone to be Gillick competent. In our view this does not reflect the reality. The evidence shows that the vast majority of children who take PBs move on to take cross-sex hormones, that Stages 1 and 2 are two stages of one clinical pathway and once on that pathway it is extremely rare for a child to get off it.

137. The defendant argues that PBs give the child "time to think", that is, to decide whether or not to proceed to cross-sex hormones or to revert to development in the natal sex. But the use of puberty blockers is not itself a neutral process by which time stands still for the child on PBs, whether physically or psychologically. PBs prevent the child going through puberty in the normal biological process. As a minimum it seems to us that this means that the child is not undergoing the physical and consequential psychological changes which would contribute to the understanding of a person's identity. There is an argument that for some children at least, this may confirm the child's chosen gender identity at the time they begin the use of puberty blockers and to that extent, confirm their GD and increase the likelihood of some children moving on to cross-sex hormones. Indeed, the statistical correlation between the use of puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones supports the case that it is appropriate to view PBs as a stepping stone to cross-sex hormones."

www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2021/741.html

Hibari · 28/03/2021 00:00

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

Hibari, could you explain this, please? Why not let children dress as they like, play with the toys they like, and not upset them by trying to force them into gender stereotypes?

Thanks.

This is generally what supportive parents do.

The only examples I'm aware of re: children being "forced" to play with toys on the advice of gender clinics are Ken Zucker's methods.
Which are conversion therapy and shouldn't be practiced by anyone.

BlackWaveComing · 28/03/2021 00:11

Watchful waiting and psychotherapeutic support for co-morbidities may not be in fashion, but it's still the most ethical path for minors expressing gender dysphoric feelings.

Consenting to putting your minor child on a medical pathway which will result in loss of sexual function, loss of fertility and a host of other life-long physical and cognitive side effects may be fashionable, but it will never be ethical.

Be more ethical. Preserve your child's options on their behalf, until they are mature enough and adult enough to weigh up the risks.

OldCrone · 28/03/2021 00:34

The only examples I'm aware of re: children being "forced" to play with toys on the advice of gender clinics are Ken Zucker's methods.

Do you have a link for this? I've been looking but I can't find anything about his methods. I've found lots of research papers, but (so far) nothing about 'forcing' children to play with toys. There's a lot to look through though, so a link would be helpful.

But I do wonder why this was mentioned in the judgment at all, if being transgender is nothing to do with stereotypes:

The teenager’s mother said her daughter had always only been interested in girls’ toys and clothes and was “utterly miserable, became very withdrawn, and was shy and unhappy” during a period when she tried to conform to a more “male” stereotype.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 28/03/2021 10:24

But Hibari, XY’s preference for what the parents called “girls’” toys and clothes and XY’s unhappiness with male-child stereotypes are what these parents cited as proof that XY was not a boy but a girl. That’s not being supportive, it’s just pushing the child into the opposite-sex stereotypes.

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