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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Good Law project have succeeded...

379 replies

Wandawomble · 26/03/2021 12:12

goodlawproject.org/news/tavistock-success/

OP posts:
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6
AlwaysTawnyOwl · 26/03/2021 22:46

Clinicians at GIDS have reported that many parents of children referred there are homophobic, wanting to trans the gay away. There are ghastly videos on youtube of American mothers saying they 'prayed to God that their child wasn't gay and were relieved when he was trans'.

A child who may be gay, brought up by such parents, will have internalised the message that there is something wrong with them. Most children are desperate for their parents approval, and will go along with what they want if that is the way to get it. Leaning on such a child that what they need is puberty blockers won't be hard.

This is open sesame for abusive parents.

RobinMoiraWhite · 26/03/2021 23:35

@AlwaysTawnyOwl

Clinicians at GIDS have reported that many parents of children referred there are homophobic, wanting to trans the gay away. There are ghastly videos on youtube of American mothers saying they 'prayed to God that their child wasn't gay and were relieved when he was trans'.

A child who may be gay, brought up by such parents, will have internalised the message that there is something wrong with them. Most children are desperate for their parents approval, and will go along with what they want if that is the way to get it. Leaning on such a child that what they need is puberty blockers won't be hard.

This is open sesame for abusive parents.

The level of paranoia displayed here is quite remarkable. I don’t deny this may occur, but in the 20 or so families with trans children I know, this isn’t a feature, so it’s either very rare or I have had a remarkable strike rate.

The defence, of course, is the need for the support of a clinician.

AfternoonToffee · 26/03/2021 23:47

but in the 20 or so families with trans children I know,

In what sort of capacity is that? Professional, real life or online support groups?

Hibari · 26/03/2021 23:51

No, because the Tavistock stated during Keira’s case that they had never considered a parental consent approach to be appropriate.

By the time she actually started treatment, Bell was too old for parental consent to be relevant.

NiceGerbil · 27/03/2021 00:02

And yet when she got older she realised that it was the wrong thing for her, had criticisms about the treatment she received, and felt strongly enough about it to go to court.

So if she didn't feel even though older that she really got her problems properly explored or fully understood the consequences, surely that supports the idea that younger children will be less able to make these life changing decisions, rather than the reverse.

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 27/03/2021 00:14

RobinMoiraWhite

m.youtube.com/watch?v=zTRnrp9pXHY&feature=youtu.

“All of the large minority of clinicians reports given to the internal review and seen by Newsnight confirm concerns about homophobic attitudes among parents”

It was a dark joke among GIDS clinicians that ‘soon there will be no gay kids left’ (Sunday Times)

LangClegsInSpace · 27/03/2021 00:31

@RedHoodGirl

As I understand it, in the Bell case the judge said that a person under 16 couldn’t consent, however parental consent as a way to get puberty blockers was never considered, as the Tavi said they didn’t use that model.

What this judgment has done is effectively made the Bell judgment ‘nul and void’, as it’s effectively said that parents should have rights in deciding what medical procedures their child should undertake (like signing consent for an operation).

Today’s ruling means that trans kids no longer need to go to court to get blockers if their parent agrees to give consent on their behalf.

No it hasn't made the Bell judgment null and void.

We all already knew that parents could consent to medical treatment on behalf of their non-Gillick-competent children. You're on a parenting forum ffs! Every toddler in the country would opt out of their booster jabs if it were up to them. Nobody here has ever doubted the validity of parental consent and this case has changed nothing.

The Bell judgment said that children are very unlikely to be Gillick competent to give their own consent to puberty blockers. Again, this judgment changes nothing.

When you think about it, today's judgment has been a complete waste of everybody's time, energy and money. Obvious law is obvious.

All that has changed is GIDS's willingness to rely theoretically (but not actually) on parental consent when just a few weeks ago they could not 'conceive of any situation where it would be appropriate'. All this case has done is highlight that GIDS are extremely fickle and arse-covering.

Everything in Bell still stands.

The Bell case sets out a number of things that a child must be able to understand, retain and weigh up, in order to give Gillick-competent informed consent to puberty blockers. If a child must understand these things then so must their parent(s) if they are consenting on behalf of their child:

  1. the immediate consequences to your child of the treatment in physical and psychological terms;

  2. the fact that your child is overwhelmingly likely to go onto cross-sex hormones and therefore will be on a pathway to much greater medical interventions;

  3. the relationship between taking cross-sex hormones and subsequent surgery, with the implications for your child of such surgery;

  4. the fact that cross-sex hormones may well lead to your child losing their fertility;

  5. the impact of cross-sex hormones on your child's sexual function;

  6. the impact that taking this step on this treatment pathway may have on your child's future and life-long relationships;

  7. the unknown physical consequences for your child of taking puberty blockers;

  8. the fact that the evidence base for this treatment is as yet highly uncertain.

Parents have not been given this information or been asked about these things until now. Parent's have been told by GIDS that puberty blockers are just a harmless reversible pause button that creates a bit of time to think and decide. Meanwhile, GIDS have done bugger all to counter the narrative of 'Do you want a live daughter or a dead son?' (usually the other way round these days).

If GIDS are now relying on parental consent then they need to ensure that parents are given all the information they need to understand and weigh up each of the above eight points, including likely outcomes if they do not consent to their child being given this experimental treatment.

So I welcome today's judgment because it invites the grown ups into the room. I'm not sure the TRAs realise quite how much they have bitten off here.

Datun · 27/03/2021 00:31

@LangClegsInSpace

I'm really confused.

In the KB case the court said that if the docs want to give blockers a court has to agree it.

Now one of these judges has said in a different case that parental consent is enough?

The judgments are not contradictory, GIDS's behaviour is.

KB case - children will not usually be Gillick competent to consent to PB, parental consent not considered because GIDS's stated position was that they cannot 'conceive of any situation where it would be appropriate' to rely on parental consent.

Today's case - simple confirmation that parents can consent to treatment on behalf of their non-Gillick-competent children.

Nothing has changed except for GIDS's sudden willingness to rely (theoretically but not actually) on parental consent.

Desperate arse-covering behaviour is often confusing.

But the way they said it, that they wouldn't prescribe on the parents say so, if the children didn't consent, makes it sound as though it's a case where the children don't actually want it.

But the children could absolutely want it, but still not be able to consent legally.

And so is the child wanting it now being seen as 'consent'? Because if it isn't, they are still unconsenting children.

Why am I seeing smoke and mirrors?

Datun · 27/03/2021 00:47

@LangClegsInSpace I know you've kindly explained it, but the implications are eluding me!

LangClegsInSpace · 27/03/2021 02:00

Up until Keira Bell's case GIDS were relying on the child's consent.

Today's case confirms the Bell decision that children are unable to consent to this treatment and also confirms that GIDS could instead use parental consent.

The implications are that in order to get proper informed consent from parents GIDS have to provide all the relevant information necessary for parents to evaluate all of the above 8 points and they can't dismiss parents' follow up questions as transphobic or unsupportive.

But the way they said it, that they wouldn't prescribe on the parents say so, if the children didn't consent, makes it sound as though it's a case where the children don't actually want it

Yes it's very disingenuous.

I can imagine cases where a child is extremely dysphoric but also doesn't want to consent to puberty blockers because they are worried about future fertility, ability to experience sexual pleasure, ability to form relationships, bone density, brain development, social development, ...

But if PBs were a truly necessary treatment then it would be fine for the parent to weigh up and make decisions on all of those points on behalf of their child, just as we would for any other medical treatment, even if our child was not at all keen.

The thing is that PBs are not a necessary treatment which is why GIDS are suggesting the same consent framework as cosmetic surgeons use when working with children.

I dunno, it's late. Maybe I'll make more sense in the morning.

ASugarr · 27/03/2021 05:15

This ruling means that a young person with parental permission and an agreement with their doctor can effectivly go onto puberty blockers. It isn't ideal because young people over a certain age shouldn't have to have parental permission, but it is a huge victory to the transgender community and for all! 😁

RobinMoiraWhite · 27/03/2021 06:44

@AlwaysTawnyOwl

RobinMoiraWhite

m.youtube.com/watch?v=zTRnrp9pXHY&feature=youtu.

“All of the large minority of clinicians reports given to the internal review and seen by Newsnight confirm concerns about homophobic attitudes among parents”

It was a dark joke among GIDS clinicians that ‘soon there will be no gay kids left’ (Sunday Times)

Yes, I have seen that.

(1) It doesn’t match my experience of the parents of the 20 or so trans children I have had contact with. They would universally want the child to be who they are, be that trans or gay.

(2) The piece is unquantified. What proportion of parents at the Tavi does that relate to?

I’m sorry to say the levels of hysteria, plain on these threads, particularly from those with no experience on trans individuals or children, about the needs of a very small minority, is really quite surprising.

R0wantrees · 27/03/2021 07:00

From the judgement by MRS JUSTICE LIEVEN
(extract)
9 ...I should be entirely clear that even if I was not in effect bound by Bell, I self-evidently entirely agree with its analysis and conclusions having been one member of the Divisional Court. Nothing that is said below is intended to depart, to even the smallest extent, from anything that was said in Bell.

37 There are a number of aspects of the treatment, as referred to in Bell, which are relevant to the issues before me: the effect of PBs [48]-[59]; reversibility [60]–[68]; the evidence base and whether PBs are "experimental" treatment [69]-[74]; and the persistence of the symptomology [75]-[77].

38 The Court's conclusions relevant to this part the case are at [134]-[137] and state:
"134. The starting point is to consider the nature of the treatment proposed. The administration of PBs to people going through puberty is a very unusual treatment for the following reasons. Firstly, there is real uncertainty over the short and long-term consequences of the treatment with very limited evidence as to its efficacy, or indeed quite what it is seeking to achieve. This means it is, in our view, properly described as experimental treatment. Secondly, there is a lack of clarity over the purpose of the treatment: in particular, whether it provides a "pause to think" in a "hormone neutral" state or is a treatment to limit the effects of puberty, and thus the need for greater surgical and chemical intervention later, as referred to in the Health Research Authority report. Thirdly, the consequences of the treatment are highly complex and potentially lifelong and life changing in the most fundamental way imaginable. The treatment goes to the heart of an individual's identity, and is thus, quite possibly, unique as a medical treatment.

135. Furthermore, the nature and the purpose of the medical intervention must be considered. The condition being treated, GD, has no direct physical manifestation. In contrast, the treatment provided for that condition has direct physical consequences, as the medication is intended to and does prevent the physical changes that would otherwise occur within the body, in particular by stopping the biological and physical development that would otherwise take place at that age. There is also an issue as to whether GD is properly categorised as a psychological condition, as the DSM-5 appears to do, although we recognise there are those who would not wish to see the condition categorised in that way. Be that as it may, in our judgment for the reasons already identified, the clinical intervention we are concerned with here is different in kind to other treatments or clinical interventions. In other cases, medical treatment is used to remedy, or alleviate the symptoms of, a diagnosed physical or mental condition, and the effects of that treatment are direct and usually apparent. The position in relation to puberty blockers would not seem to reflect that description.

136. Indeed the consequences which flow from taking PBs for GD and which must be considered in the context of informed consent, fall into two (interlinking) categories. Those that are a direct result of taking the PBs themselves, and those that follow on from progression to Stage 2, that is taking cross-sex hormones. The defendant and the Trusts argue that Stage 1 and 2 are entirely separate; a child can stop taking PBs at any time and that Stage 1 is fully reversible. It is said therefore the child needs only to understand the implications of taking PBs alone to be Gillick competent. In our view this does not reflect the reality. The evidence shows that the vast majority of children who take PBs move on to take cross-sex hormones, that Stages 1 and 2 are two stages of one clinical pathway and once on that pathway it is extremely rare for a child to get off it.

137. The defendant argues that PBs give the child "time to think", that is, to decide whether or not to proceed to cross-sex hormones or to revert to development in the natal sex. But the use of puberty blockers is not itself a neutral process by which time stands still for the child on PBs, whether physically or psychologically. PBs prevent the child going through puberty in the normal biological process. As a minimum it seems to us that this means that the child is not undergoing the physical and consequential psychological changes which would contribute to the understanding of a person's identity. There is an argument that for some children at least, this may confirm the child's chosen gender identity at the time they begin the use of puberty blockers and to that extent, confirm their GD and increase the likelihood of some children moving on to cross-sex hormones. Indeed, the statistical correlation between the use of puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones supports the case that it is appropriate to view PBs as a stepping stone to cross-sex hormones."

AfternoonToffee · 27/03/2021 07:03

(1) It doesn’t match my experience of the parents of the 20 or so trans children I have had contact with. They would universally want the child to be who they are, be that trans or gay.

I'll ask again, in what capacity do you know these parents?

PotholeHellhole · 27/03/2021 07:05

I have been reading this thread with interest.

I am afraid that I do not find "well, I know 20 children whose families I consider non-abusive" a convincing argument for deep-sixing anyone's concerns.

Yes. There are loads of non-abusive parents out there. Nobody ever said there weren't. But the family court system, and medical ethics, have evolved in response to the realisation that there are abusive parents and also loving but misguided parents out there, who do not make decisions in their children's best interests.

For this reason, to pick a random example, it does not matter if a thirteen year old has her mother's permission to have a tattoo done. The tattooist is not legally allowed to do it.

PotholeHellhole · 27/03/2021 07:11

This is an archive of children who tragically died due to their parents' trust in the principles of Christian Science.

I do not believe these parents intended harm to their children. But harm happened and it was facilitated by overly lax child welfare legislation.

childrenshealthcare.org/?page_id=132

Leafstamp · 27/03/2021 07:40

Hibari If you’re basing your arguments on the 20 families you know then I think you have misunderstood how logical debate, data and statistics work.

In addition, even if something is very rare it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t safeguard against it. Especially where children are concerned.

R0wantrees · 27/03/2021 07:46

There are loads of non-abusive parents out there. Nobody ever said there weren't. But the family court system, and medical ethics, have evolved in response to the realisation that there are abusive parents and also loving but misguided parents out there, who do not make decisions in their children's best interests.

current relevant thread, OP NecessaryScene1 wrote,
"Fascinating psychological insight into child/parent dynamics by Dr David Bell
I'm finally getting around to watching Vaishnavi Sundar's "Dysphoria" documentary, and it's great.

There's a lot of material in there by Dr David Bell, who we recently saw in that great Channel 4 interview.
www.channel4.com/news/children-have-been-very-seriously-damaged-by-nhs-gender-clinic-says-former-tavistock-staff-governor

I found this segment thought-provoking - he's just described a dynamic in a way I've not seen anyone else do so clearly.

... the centrality of guilt - that any child who has real mental suffering, parents who are reasonably in touch, feel terrible! And they feel responsible.

And they can't be completely non-responsible either.

You know, you can't say to parents: "Oh no, no, no, it's nothing to do with you". But you can help families try to understand how things have got to this place.

So parents who feel very guilty, I think sometimes, if the child said... if all the difficulties get reprogrammed through the prism of gender - so now everything is gender. It's not depression, it's not autism, it's not trauma in the past that the family may feel guilty about. It's gender. And that's a completely separate thing.

That has a consequence of relieving the parents of guilt. So the parents may even join up and say: "yes, we support you in being trans" for unconscious reasons. Not because they're bad people, but for reasons they themselves don't understand.

But again, the services don't question that. And the parents who do question it, may have real concerns, are othered. So these tyrannical organisations, which do not see themselves as tyrannical, are to some extent unwittingly exploiting the vulnerability of parents. "

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4201725-Fascinating-psychological-insight-into-child-parent-dynamics-by-Dr-David-Bell

R0wantrees · 27/03/2021 08:09

@Leafstamp

Hibari If you’re basing your arguments on the 20 families you know then I think you have misunderstood how logical debate, data and statistics work.

In addition, even if something is very rare it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t safeguard against it. Especially where children are concerned.

RobinMoiraWhite is the pp who in reliance on perceptions of people known appears to misunderstand how logical debate, data and statistics work. The more concerning issue being, as you point out, a failure to understand Child Protection/ Safeguarding principles.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/03/2021 08:11

Yes, I have seen that.

Take it up with Newsnight then.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/03/2021 08:17

Yes. There are loads of non-abusive parents out there. Nobody ever said there weren't. But the family court system, and medical ethics, have evolved in response to the realisation that there are abusive parents and also loving but misguided parents out there, who do not make decisions in their children's best interests.

YY.

NotBadConsidering · 27/03/2021 08:21

The judges in Keira’s case set out the following for children to consent:

(i) the immediate consequences of the treatment in physical and psychological terms;
(ii) the fact that the vast majority of patients taking puberty blocking drugs proceed to taking cross-sex hormones and are, therefore, a pathway to much greater medical interventions;
(iii) the relationship between taking cross-sex hormones and subsequent surgery, with the implications of such surgery;
(iv) the fact that cross-sex hormones may well lead to a loss of fertility;
(v) the impact of cross-sex hormones on sexual function;
(vi) the impact that taking this step on this treatment pathway may have on future and life-long relationships;
(vii) the unknown physical consequences of taking puberty blocking drugs; and
(viii) the fact that the evidence base for this treatment is as yet highly uncertain

Hibari dismissed these criteria. But they are still valid and 100% accurate. I find it remarkable that parents are expected to consent based on these criteria, and that people here are championing them doing so, despite it being clear what that will entail.

The children are not being protected.

R0wantrees · 27/03/2021 08:31

Why am I seeing smoke and mirrors?

A key part of the judgement is that it provides a legal 'flak jacket' to those doctors (whether at UCHL or GPs) who decide to continue prescribing puberty blockers to children with gender dysphoria post Bell vs Tavistock whilst also making clear that the medical Safeguarding frameworks, rather than the courts, should examine and take responsibility for the ethical basis for such experimental interventions.

(extracts from judgement)
"Mr McKendrick said that his client [UCHL] would, before Bell, do the prescriptions themselves if the GP declined. However, it was not clear whether that would continue to happen post Bell. In any event, it is not wholly clear whose consent is being relied upon to make the administration of PBs lawful post Bell.

Lord Donaldson considered the matter further in the subsequent judgment in Re W. That case concerned a young woman of 16, who was therefore within the ambit of s.8 Family Law Reform Act 1969. Lord Donaldson said first that he doubted whether "Lord Scarman [in Gillick] meant more than that the exclusive right of parents to consent to treatment terminated [on the achievement of competence by their children]" [76D]. He further expanded:
"On reflection I regret my use in In Re R. (A Minor) (Wardship: Consent to Treatment) [1992] Fam. 11, 22, of the key holder analogy because keys can lock as well as unlock. I now prefer the analogy of the legal "flak jacket" which protects the doctor from claims by the litigious whether he acquires it from his patient who may be a minor over the age of 16, or a "Gillick competent" child under that age or from another person having parental responsibilities which include a right to consent to treatment of the minor. Anyone who gives him a flak jacket (that is, consent) may take it back, but the doctor only needs one and so long as he continues to have one he has the legal right to proceed."

It may prove unfortunate in the future to some families in the event that they seek redress that they opted to support such an intervention by the courts.

InvisibleDragon · 27/03/2021 09:01

nauticant Thank you for explaining this - it's good to hear that the judgement here was specifically limited in application.

The judgement doesn't consider the harm that might be caused by puberty blockers and decide that either they don't cause harm or the harm is justified. This isn't because the judge forgot to discuss this, nor is it because the judge was implicitly applying the legal principle "Everything which is not forbidden is allowed". It's because they judge knows that the harms of puberty blockers are being considered elsewhere and will allow the findings elsewhere to determine what happens. It was the judge consciously limiting the scope of the decision and letting others tackle that issue.

I think what worries me is that the Bell judgement was also not a decision on the quality of the evidence - because that's the role of medical science, not the law. But if, for various reasons, the science is basically quackery, where are the legal safeguards? Where is the line between 'currently unproven, experimental treatment' and 'discredited treatment for which multiple trials have failed to find evidence of efficacy'?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/03/2021 09:09

I think this is the problem. The level of capture within the NHS means that the lack of a robust evidence base is tolerated where it would maybe not be in other specialties.

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