Feminism and Buffy the Vampire Slayer

[TheBuffster]

Fluff thread inspired by a recent discussion on do feminists fancy evil men.

I'm outing myself as a massive Buffy fan, but I think the series despite being written by Joss Whedon, has some great feminist moments both on screen and off. What's your favourite feminist moment in Buffy?

I'll start. I love how series 7 ends with Buffy as an Artemis figure, single, beautiful deadly and not needing a man to discover herself.

Angel turning to Angelus after she slept with him was a masterstroke. Men do become abusive after they catch you. Druscilla was the feminist icon for me though. She was unapologetically herself and I wish the actress could have gotten a bigger role but she was probably far too good for the show.

I have to admit I always had ambivalent feelings to Buffy. I mean, it was well made, glossy, funny - I watched it and think I made it all the way through, all my friends and I were into it.

But there was also something I didn't (and don't like about it), and I honestly don't know what it is. I also never found it feminist or empowering, (despite the explicit themes) and I'm not sure why. Discovering that Joss Whedon was a typical Hollywood creep didn't throw any light on it either.

I appreciate that this is almost an entirely pointless comment

Ohh that's an interesting perspective on Drusilla.
I always read her as an abuse victim (Angel's) who gained her own twisted agency. I think her killing Kendra and torturing Giles were some of the most powerful vampire moments of the show.

Yes to the Angel metaphor and how that carried on more realistically non the character of Parker (who I swear I dated at university)

Juliet Landau did another vampire project recently, a grown up one. It's called a place amongst the dead but I have not seen it.

@zzizzer

I have to admit I always had ambivalent feelings to Buffy. I mean, it was well made, glossy, funny - I watched it and think I made it all the way through, all my friends and I were into it.

But there was also something I didn't (and don't like about it), and I honestly don't know what it is. I also never found it feminist or empowering, (despite the explicit themes) and I'm not sure why. Discovering that Joss Whedon was a typical Hollywood creep didn't throw any light on it either.

I appreciate that this is almost an entirely pointless comment

I get what you’re saying. I stopped watching after while when the story became a bit of a pile up on buffy.

In terms of feminism Firefly was probably better but that’s probably only because the show was cancelled before JW could dumb it down

What I appreciate now looking back is a show with many female characters, fully fledged and not just talking about boys and their relationships with them.

It's also the idea that you could make a superhero of a 16 year old girl and not make it a joke or somehow belittle her. She did what she wanted and she saved the world, a lot.

@TheBuffster

Ohh that's an interesting perspective on Drusilla. I always read her as an abuse victim (Angel's) who gained her own twisted agency. I think her killing Kendra and torturing Giles were some of the most powerful vampire moments of the show.

Yes to the Angel metaphor and how that carried on more realistically non the character of Parker (who I swear I dated at university)

Juliet Landau did another vampire project recently, a grown up one. It's called a place amongst the dead but I have not seen it.

Druscilla and Spike were great because he loved her exactly for what she was, and you don’t often see a male character do that. Let alone a villain. His relationship with Angel / Angelus was great too and I wish they explored the bisexual / pansexual part of this relationship rather than pander to viewing audiences by turning willow into a lesbian so suddenly.

James Masters and Juliet Landau were definitely the best actors on the show.

@TheBuffster
"I'm outing myself as a massive Buffy fan"

You're called TheBuffster

Anyway, Becoming Part 2:

Angelus: Now that's everything, huh? No weapons. No friends. No hope. Take all that away and what's left?

He tries to strike her with the sword. She catches it.

Buffy: Me.

I get the gloss thing.
However, I think something that makes it a feminist show was how SMG put her foot down and won.
Like in series 1 it was all short skirts till she argued that was stupid for someone fighting everyday, so Buffy by season 3 has a much more practical wardrobe.
And I defy anyone to watch The Body and not see how raw and unglamorous it is.

Haha true, although I was thinking of name hanging to Buffythebadfeminist in honour of the fancying evil men thread.

I love Buffy so much but the older I get the more I wonder about feminism in relation to it. Perhaps that is just because of the sad revelations about Joss Whedon.

But there were lots of women winning fights so that was definitely positive!

I think the feminism of Buffy is absolutely flawed.
But that's why it's a good talking point. I plan to use Xander's possessive aggressive friend zoning of Buffy as a talking point to D's about boundaries and consent. (It'll be a while, D's can't talk yet).

Cordelia. How she starts off as a rich, superficial daddy's girl, and becomes a fierce independent woman by the end of Angel. Her character arc is like no other that I've seen in a programme. She is so beautifully portrayed by charisma carpenter, and she's stayed with me always.

Faith in general. Needs no one, all around bad ass and in my ever unpopular opinion - the far superior slater 😬

Faith in general. Needs no one, all around bad ass and in my ever unpopular opinion - the far superior slater

I'm afraid I can't agree with that haha. I think Faith is a very rich character with an awesome character arc though.

She and Buffy definitely have daddy issues though.

And Charisma Carpenter has proved herself very brave. Good to see a lot of the rest of the cast backing her.
I remember reading that she was sacked for being pregnant back in the day and not being surprised (because I had a nice case of internal misogyny going on)

I watched the whole of Buffy with my daughter when she turned twelve and it was a glorious thing! She got as into it as I have always been and it prompted many useful discussions. It was so nice sharing it with her.

Buffy manages to not regurgitate endless cliches - I'm especially bored of the plot twist where it turns out that a woman is actually the supervillain.
I like the idea that it's a modern fairytale. Girls need more of the old ''be smart, watch your back, this is what Mr Wrong looks like'' kind of fairytale.

I love that so many people are rewatching it with their daughters. It subverts a lot of stereotypes (and follows others) it's a really good 'growing up tool'.

I couldn't stand Buffy, either the series or Buffy herself and her weak chin and endless moping around. The men were awful too, especially the thick looking one with the chiselled jaw.

I would be quite happy to look like SMG, weak chin and bumpy nose included. She's pretty but not in a ridiculous Megan Fox kind of way. The female leads were criticized for being beautiful but I think they all were in an unconventional way if that makes sense. More actors like Tara would've been good, but it was good to see a different body type at the time in the 90s.

As for the chiselled jaw guy I think that means you're team Spike by default.

As for the chiselled jaw guy I think that means you're team Spike by default

The weedy one with the bad dye job? Lordy no.

Great, less competition.

That dye job really was bad btw. He had to have it done so regularly his scalp bubbled.
Ouch.

I'm a huge fan, but I know what you mean. Have just watched it with my 12 year olds and there were bits I'd forgotten were really not great. With Buffy Whedon really sets women (and girls - since that was the initial audience) up to accept poor relationships. Which, knowing what we know now may be because he's an atrocious partner.

He constantly has couples coming back together after fairly unforgiveable treatment. The Cordy/Xander Willow/Oz betrayal in season 3 with Oz accepting Willow made a mistake and being okay with her still hanging around with Xander seemed pretty unbelievable to me, especially when he then couldn't control himself when later found out about Tara. (I did like Cordelia's reaction, though). Later there were the issues with Willow playing with Tara's memory and Tara still coming back to Willow. And, of course, Spike's attempted rape of Buffy which Masters has said he thought didn't work the way intended as a spur for him to get a soul, but I thought the worst bit was that Buffy accepted him back after as though that wouldn't have a profound impact. There were other bits too, and no really good relationships (though I get that stability is generally not a TV show friendly). Altogether it reads as a desperate plea for acceptance of poor behaviour to me.

Central female character with agency. Doesn't just have conversations about men. Flawed. Independent.

Jeezo. It would be amazing NOW much less 20+ years ago.

I liked the fact that she had massively fucked up relationships. It showed that someone could be so strong to the outside world and still vulnerable and a mess in other parts of her lives. She was stronger and a better fighter than all the men but they still could hurt her. She deserved better but that would be terrible tv!

I watched and loved it when it came out (i was the same age as Buffy) and watched again in lockdown. I still love it, but there's lots to be disturbed by. When I was a teenager Xander's 'nice guy' routine went over my head but on rewatch I thought he was the worst. I also found Willow's manipulation of Tara and Spike's attempted rape of Buffy very unsettling.

I do think it mostly stands up.