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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

This is Really Good! Women only Covid Vaccination Clinic to Overcome Cultural Barriers in Predominantly Muslim Community

50 replies

gardenbird48 · 19/03/2021 10:45

The medical director, said: “We are keen to remove barriers and work closely with communities to encourage the uptake of the vaccination.

"By working with XXXX and other local women’s networks, we can spread our message and information about the vaccines to parts of the local population which may not have access to the facts surrounding the vaccine and the vaccination programme.

"We are willing to work with everyone and create spaces that are sensitive to people’s cultures and beliefs to ensure there are no barriers to vaccine take-up. Our team tomorrow will be an all-women team of vaccinators and admin volunteers.

"This is the most successful vaccination programme ever and we are determined no communities will be left behind."

I must admit I hesitated to post this (not wanting to alert the monitors) but it is quite well publicised in the area and I think they are well enough supported in the wider community that they could avoid too many issues.

I thought it might be a helpful point for some of the recent new posters on here Welcome new Posters Daffodil to understand the wider impacts of gender ideology.

However, this demonstrates perfectly how we need to consider the needs of all people. Many women in that area were not engaging with the Covid vaccination programme due to cultural issues ie. if there were men giving the vaccinations, they could not access them. If male people are allowed to self-id into that space, these women would not be able to access it.

This could be a matter of life and death for some women. Many of the policies that public service bodies like the NHS, local councils , the police, schools, employers etc have allowed Stonewall to influence only consider the 'Equality' of one protected characteristic when creating their Diversity policies and training.

In most cases they have used Stonewall's false information relating to the law so that one protected characteristic (Gender Reassignment) not only has full protection from discrimination and bullying but also acquires access to single sex spaces reserved for the opposite sex (and in doing so, removes those exact single sex spaces from the women).

The policies incorrectly place the perceived rights of the person with the pc of Gender Reassignment above people with other protected characteristics (Sex, Disability, Religious Beliefs).

There was a lady on here recently who was upset to find that her workplace was allowing male people to self-id into the female toilets. This meant that she and the other women with religious beliefs that prevented them from sharing that space with male people (regardless of how they identify) are potentially excluded from working there.

Young girls from a Muslim background who go to university are at risk of being excluded because many universities have effectively removed single sex facilities and even sleeping arrangements (shared rooms/flats etc) are put at risk because many universities allow students to self-identify their sex so it is entirely feasible that a girl will be placed in a shared room with a male bodied student. If she protests - she will be accused of transphobia by the university as they have put that policy in place in full knowledge of the consequences. That is not a good start to a young student's academic career.

We need to ensure that all policies give equal weight the needs of ALL protected characteristics in the Equality Act 2010, not just one.

OP posts:
GreyhoundG1rl · 19/03/2021 14:22

I think it's a very positive move.

ErrolTheDragon · 19/03/2021 14:35
  • I would prefer that a bit of common sense were applied by these women, their communities and their religious leaders.

Oh, I'd prefer that. But the situation at the moment is, some women either self impose these limits because of their beliefs or have limits imposed on them. It's besides the point whether it's sensible or not, or even whether the religion really says they shouldn't have a vaccination from a man. Two wrongs don't make a right, and doubly disadvantaging these women by not circumventing the restrictions serves no good purpose.

SerendipityJane · 19/03/2021 14:50

Would a non muslim woman be accepted for a vaccination ?

Just pondering.

MichelleofzeResistance · 19/03/2021 14:53

I'm not "fine" with pointless and arbitrary sex discrimination on religious grounds- are you?

Yes, if it means that women are not excluded or prevented from equal access on the basis of their sex.

You're not going to change or fix this situation tomorrow. These women don't share your values, your life experience, your politics. You obviously haven't met and don't have direct knowledge or experience of what life is like for some women who do live with these boundaries.

It's rather colonial to be dictating that your superior social politics based wholly on your personal life experience, is the only possible right approach and anyone too backward to just abandon their culture, faith, family, any fears about how said family may react or permit, likewise community, and do what you say should just be dismissed as not worth including in society.

I honestly thought we got past all of this decades ago. These are the exact same kind of superiority complexes from more powerful groups that got aboriginal and native american kids sent to boarding schools to get them away from their backward and silly cultural beliefs and families failing to live by proper white western standards.

DGRossetti · 19/03/2021 14:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MichelleofzeResistance · 19/03/2021 15:03

I think there's probably a fuckton of a little middle ground between the two positions to most reasonable people. Confused

MissBarbary · 19/03/2021 15:20

@SerendipityJane

Would a non muslim woman be accepted for a vaccination ?

Just pondering.

That's a good point. Can one "self identify" as Muslim?

Personally, no I wouldn't- regardless of whether that might give me some benefit over a non- Muslim.

MissBarbary · 19/03/2021 15:23

It's rather colonial to be dictating that your superior social politics based wholly on your personal life experience, is the only possible right approach and anyone too backward to just abandon their culture, faith, family, any fears about how said family may react or permit, likewise community, and do what you say should just be dismissed as not worth including in society

Why should one group of women for an entirely self- imposed reason get better treatment than another? Isn't that imposing their culture to their advantage?

If single-sex spaces are important then they are important for all women. End of story.

WoolOfBat · 19/03/2021 15:32

I am pretty sure that any woman would be accepted for vaccination. The point appears to be biological women only.

I am happy that there is a single sex space for those who need/want it. I am happy with a mixed sex space for vaccinations, but it appears that all aren’t.

I don’t know why anyone would self identify into a religion they don’t believe in, but as long as you appear to respect the faith I don’t think anyone would stop you.

Catholic Churches don’t ask people for proof that they believe in transubstantiation (and that they repented all sin) before giving communion.

Obviously to accept a Catholic communion without believing in transubstantiation is considered a great sin in itself. Hence the upset from the Catholic Church when Tony Blair alluded to Catholic communion without confirming whether he was a Catholic if I remember correctly.

MichelleofzeResistance · 19/03/2021 15:48

Why should one group of women for an entirely self- imposed reason get better treatment than another? Isn't that imposing their culture to their advantage?

Better treatment?

Yes, all women should have the option of single sex provision. But you really need to meet some women who have these barriers. 'Self imposed' advantage..... I'm just gobsmacked at the unfairness and offensiveness of that. You have no idea of the realities of barriers some women face and just can't walk away from at will.

SerendipityJane · 19/03/2021 15:50

Personally, no I wouldn't- regardless of whether that might give me some benefit over a non- Muslim.

Isn't it the heart of equality - and indeed a rebuttal to the EDL (or BNP or whatever they are called this year) - that all are treated equally regardless of race, religion and sex ?

So if it seems you can gain some sort of benefit as a Muslim woman, then what is going on ?

RedDogsBeg · 19/03/2021 15:56

Why should one group of women for an entirely self- imposed reason get better treatment than another? Isn't that imposing their culture to their advantage?

They are not getting better treatment they are just getting treatment they may otherwise not be able to access. It is not imposing their culture to their advantage they are not denying anyone else the vaccination.

MichelleofzeResistance · 19/03/2021 15:57

If a woman can't access a mixed sex provision, then without provision of single sex access she does not have equality, never mind benefit.

WoolOfBat · 19/03/2021 16:03

they are not denying anyone else their vaccination

And they are furthermore not forcing anyone else to respect their beliefs - or to use single sex spaces if they prefer not to.

Why all this policing about what other people do and believe when they don’t impose it on anyone else?

And if single sex spaces in a health care setting is such a massive benefit, maybe we should just provide more, for everyone who wants it?

WarriorN · 19/03/2021 16:14

Thanks for the info OP, been useful to share

gardenbird48 · 19/03/2021 17:17

@WarriorN

Thanks for the info OP, been useful to share
thank you.

I hope I haven't given the impression that they are restricting this service to Muslim women - I didn't get that message from the article at all. It was just that in an area with a strong ethnic community, they identified that there was a lack of uptake from women and have made suitable provision to encourage women.

I mentioned religion as a means of giving context to the point of the provision because I didn't want to copy the whole article because I don't want to inadvertently cause them any stress because certain people object to the women only service (unbelievable that that is even a consideration that should cross my mind but here we are).

I don't think there is any exclusion going on here at all (apart from men obvs). I hope this service is a success and the idea can be rolled out to other areas where there is a low uptake from women for whatever reason.

OP posts:
WarriorN · 19/03/2021 18:00

No, I had a look for the article and found this.

Many women have appreciated the single sex space.

www.itv.com/news/calendar/2021-03-18/keighley-womens-only-vaccine-clinic-uk-first?fbclid=IwAR3hQwJA11mHUsZcLTc2Pq03HV--6iPb6vk6036H1lWxG_V7mG3X7hzZXOU

WarriorN · 19/03/2021 18:04

It's also an excellent place for women who may need to secretly access help for domestic violence / phone numbers and leaflets can be advertised and visible.

WarriorN · 19/03/2021 18:09

I hadn't read some posts; this has clearly been accessed by women from all cultures and backgrounds though I suspect they wanted to specifically reach a small minority who didn't feel comfortable getting the vaccine due to cultural or religious reasons.

But also recognising that for any reason a woman may prefer a single sex environment.

2020isnotbehaving · 19/03/2021 18:12

I’ve seen the itv news video it’s was used by women of various ethnic backgrounds so not a Asian/Muslim thing. Though of course if it had a high BAME area then that is going to reflect in who comes through the door.

If I had choice I would choice a women’s only one would feel much less stressful all round.

GreyhoundG1rl · 19/03/2021 18:13

I don’t get why anyone begrudges something like this, I think it’s fantastic.
The idea of Muslim women (even if it were just for them) getting something extra sending people into a jealous frenzy is a bit grim.

EyesOpening · 19/03/2021 18:19

At the large venues I assume there will be even more people around. What do they think is going to happen?

Male people being there, at a rough guess

MissBarbary · 20/03/2021 11:10

@EyesOpening

At the large venues I assume there will be even more people around. What do they think is going to happen?

Male people being there, at a rough guess

And? So what? They inject your upper arm.

There is no justification for offering single sex spaces on religious grounds. If there is a genuine need for single sex spaces no one should have to use a religious reason to justify it.

ErrolTheDragon · 20/03/2021 11:33

If there is a genuine need for single sex spaces no one should have to use a religious reason to justify it.

Sure, they shouldn't have to, in an ideal world. But that's one these women don't live in. The religious restrictions on women need to go before removing their access to services, otherwise it's just further disadvantaging the disadvantaged.

Your argument is rational but doesn't work in the context of irrationality, unfortunately.

EyesOpening · 20/03/2021 15:21

On looking, I found the government have set up a special team to monitor uptake, so presumably they identify places where the uptake is not so high, investigate, then work with community leaders etc to find a solution to increasing uptake

”We need to ensure that everyone feels that the vaccine is for them. For some groups of the population the intention to be vaccinated is lower than others. To make sure all our communities are protected, this Vaccine Uptake Plan sets out our approach to making sure that as many people as possible take up the offer of vaccination.”

”Our approach
Our collective aim is to improve vaccine uptake across all communities. The approach is underpinned by four enablers at national, regional and local level. These are:
working in partnership
removing barriers to access
data and information
conversations and engagement

Working in partnership
To ensure as many people as possible take up the offer of a vaccine when it is their turn, we need to work in partnership at every level and at every step of the way. This plan takes a local, community-led approach...”

They’ve obviously identified a need in this place and worked on a solution.
I’ve read, here or perhaps on a different thread, about some religious women can’t/won’t even roll up their sleeves in the presence of males so how would you persuade them to get vaccinated, MissBarbary? I’m personally not a fan of religion myself, especially ones where I feel women are oppressed, but I don’t begrudge others their faith and I certainly don’t begrudge finding a solution to them getting vaccinated.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccination-uptake-plan/uk-covid-19-vaccine-uptake-plan

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