Self defence classes for girls in schools?

[SingToTheSky]

DD1’s tutor group have been discussing women’s safety a lot and the subject has been handled really well (she told me her tutor hasn’t stood for people laughing it off etc).

She’s been so worried and we’ve talked about doing self defence classes (she was great at tae kwon do but ironically left as she didn’t feel comfortable with some of the male teachers - not due to any behaviour, she just would feel more confident in an all female class). So I’ve emailed her tutor (in the event she’s a mumsnetter... hi! 👋😁) asking if something at school is a possibility, when Covid safe etc.

But it would need to be just for girls really (whether they also offered a boys’ class). Is that likely to be something they’d get into shit for? It’s actually a sports specialist school, and DD1 informs me they do separate PE classes by sex.

I just wondered if anyone knows of schools who have done this, whether in the past or recently in light of recent discussions? Thanks

I think you would have to offer something to the boys. Formal stuff like that you'd definitely get parental complaints otherwise.
If you included different safety and respect messages as part of both clubs I think you'd be more likely to be allowed to separate.

Girls
Basic stranger danger
DV statistics
Running to safety developing stamina
Self defense rules and the law
Self defense moves

Boys
Stranger danger
Respect and consent
DV statistics
How to report behaviour
Running away
Fitness (boxercise or similar)

The thing to get across is that the girls need to be separated from the boys when shown moves for safety, dignity etc.

The other important thing is like all self defense children need to be taught it not to use it and very particular the age of responsibility.
Also build in that fighting is always the last option and running away gives the best chance. Don't want to give false confidence that they can take on a man and win.

Thank you thebuffster :) absolutely agree about the need for it to be a last resort. The tae kwon do teacher is very firm about that.

It would be sensible for them to do boys’ classes too, that’s true. There are some very unsafe areas near the school and when they’ve been asking who’s felt unsafe quite a proportion of the boys said they had, even if not as high as the girls.

Anyway, her form tutor replied and likes the idea, she’s forwarding it on to the relevant department, so that’s good!

I am a great fan of teaching girls (and boys for that matter) fighting skills.

Teaching fighting skills should be part of the school curriculum IMO

Learning how to finght is great fun, it excellent fitness training and it teaches kids respect and disipline.

For children boxing really is a great choice because it teaches kids discipline, hard work and respect for teachers. It also teaches kids how to fight back if they are in danger. Also Amateur Boxing Clubs (ABCs) are inexpensive and many do great work with kids diverting them from crime and teaching them how to behave properly.

Judo is also good as the training is standardised and so you are less likely to encounter a martial arts cult or McDojo.

tae kwon do is excellent for exercise but may be limited in terms of martial applications in a situation where a child needs to defend themselves.

My knowledge of TKD is limited as I have not trained it myself, however I know many people who have. There are 2 main schools of TKD and both are very foccussed on kicks generally and high kicks in particular, which may not be the best way for a child to deal with a real life opponent.

ABCs that teach juniors often have single sex classes, so my suggetion would be for you to check that out once we are out of lockdown.

I also think that, whatever MA your daughter learns, it is in her best intersts when the times is right, to spar with male opponents. Sparring is friendly, controlled violence and is great for helping females to learn how to hit males very hard in the face and body (obviously pads are used).

Also good boxing and judo classes will help kids understand the limitations of their skills.

I have seen lots of not very good martial arts trainings for women and children where the instructor imparts a false sense of badassery onto students, potentially placing them at risk of harm.

Due diligence is important

The Equality Act allows for sex affected activities to be single sex, especially sports. This would be legal. They could offer separate classes for girls and boys.

The Equality Act 2010 seeks to ensure that people are treated equally and not discriminated against because of a protected characteristic . However, the Equality Act 2010 also recognises that sometimes groups of people will need help or encouragement, due to disadvantage, underrepresentation or different needs.
equalityinsport.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Positive-action-in-sport.pdf

Thelnebriati

How would that play out in an ABC if a trans woman turned up and insisted in sparring with women?

I'm asking as, prior to lockdown, I was going to join a local ABC and the owner didn't go into detail but from things he said I think this may have come up as an issue for the club and that the club had reached a zenith of understanding about certain things.

I used to do self defence training many years ago. It was very enjoyable and certainly good for my confidence and overall fitness, however none of the techniques I learned would have been any use against a man who was intent on harming me. I think this needs to be made clear.

This is something I've felt strongly about for a long time, and in fact was poised to start running self-defence classes for women before covid struck and scuppered it. I will be starting them as soon as possible.

I wanted to approach schools and see what their thoughts were, so it's good to hear that at least one school may be open to the idea.

Krav maga teaches awareness avoiding situations how to get out e g if grabbed and last resort how to fight back
Dd and I did both mixed class then women only. Really good.
Teacher does mixed classes at schools and females only

You want something that teaches situation awareness and defence.

@hoodathunkit

Thelnebriati

How would that play out in an ABC if a trans woman turned up and insisted in sparring with women?

I'm asking as, prior to lockdown, I was going to join a local ABC and the owner didn't go into detail but from things he said I think this may have come up as an issue for the club and that the club had reached a zenith of understanding about certain things.

In the UK, a person is only recognised in their legally acquired sex if they have a GRC (Gender recognition certificate) and amended birth certificate. There are exceptions for sex affected activities, and one is sport.

A gender recognition certificate does not allow a person to join a sex affected sport.
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/19

I used to do self defence training many years ago. It was very enjoyable and certainly good for my confidence and overall fitness, however none of the techniques I learned would have been any use against a man who was intent on harming me. I think this needs to be made clear.

Thank you for sharing this important fact

Also there are countless really bad martial arts and self defense schools out there. Bad teachers really can harm people when they think they can defend themselves against an opponent and end up getting their arses kicked.

Self defense classes for women have a very, very bad rep. It is not they they are all bad, just that they are a really effective place for bad teachers to hide.

Even worse some martial arts schools are effectively cults. Some operate MLM franshises, some hand out meaningless black belts as if they were sweets.

this, for example, is not good
camdennewjournal.com/article/i-see-brick-and-know-i-can-break-it-my-hands-meet-iron-woman-kentish-town

The Kixa / Kateda "martial art" is extremely controversial. Kixa is targeted at vulnerable women

even though it was exposed decades ago still it goes on

old TV expose below

From personal experience - I started Judo at the age of 9 and had to give up at 55 years old due to arthritis...

I actually wouldn't have separate classes for self-defence. Why? Because if you must fight (and that should be avoided whenever possible) then you are going to be fighting a male, and one who is stronger than you. I was one of only two girls (and eventually the only one) in my Judo club from the age of 9 until the age of 18. The reason that I got to be very good at it was because I fought against boys and men. I could never have competed on strength, so I had to do so on skill.

You have to be very careful that teaching self-defence doesn't instil an over-reliance on misplaced confidence. It's a very delicate balance to achieve. A few lessons in self-defence can be very useful, and I am massively in favour of it, but it has to come with a "health warning" - the best form of self-defence is to not be in a situation where you need it. It shouldn't be the case, but this is the real world, and it is.

The instructor of this "martial art" Yellow Baboo, is invovled in new age tantra festivals. Odious man

Stay away, stay very far away

Thelnebriati

That's very helpful
Thank you :)

If you're interested there's a really good programme called box2bfit that go into schools to give training. They then give you the tools and equipment to run your own sessions. So simple anyone, ta teacher, parent can run them. Older children can also set up the stations.

I actually wouldn't have separate classes for self-defence. Why? Because if you must fight (and that should be avoided whenever possible) then you are going to be fighting a male, and one who is stronger than you. I was one of only two girls (and eventually the only one) in my Judo club from the age of 9 until the age of 18. The reason that I got to be very good at it was because I fought against boys and men. I could never have competed on strength, so I had to do so on skill.

I agree 100% that you have to spar with men, with aliveness, if you want to gain skills.

However I think that women only classes have their place. I needed to attend some women only classes before I felt able to go on to train with men.

Self defence classes (imo) should, as a bare minimum:

Teach that the first rule is to not get yourself into a tricky situation in the first place.
Teach that the second rule is to run, if possible.
Teach simple, easy to learn techniques (and what to avoid).
Include some fitness.
Include at least one class where 'normal' clothing is worn- it's one thing to try a judo throw or karate kick in loose gis and bare feet- quite another to do it in a dress and heels.
Have some trained and willing males to practice on, at some point during the course/s.

Martial arts are fantastic, as a long term option. But not everyone wants to commit to that long term regime. (And I say this as a 3rd dan black belt, who has been training in karate for over 17 years.) A good, shorter term option should be available.

@hoodathunkit

I am a great fan of teaching girls (and boys for that matter) fighting skills.

Teaching fighting skills should be part of the school curriculum IMO

Learning how to finght is great fun, it excellent fitness training and it teaches kids respect and disipline.

For children boxing really is a great choice because it teaches kids discipline, hard work and respect for teachers. It also teaches kids how to fight back if they are in danger. Also Amateur Boxing Clubs (ABCs) are inexpensive and many do great work with kids diverting them from crime and teaching them how to behave properly.

Judo is also good as the training is standardised and so you are less likely to encounter a martial arts cult or McDojo.

tae kwon do is excellent for exercise but may be limited in terms of martial applications in a situation where a child needs to defend themselves.

My knowledge of TKD is limited as I have not trained it myself, however I know many people who have. There are 2 main schools of TKD and both are very foccussed on kicks generally and high kicks in particular, which may not be the best way for a child to deal with a real life opponent.

ABCs that teach juniors often have single sex classes, so my suggetion would be for you to check that out once we are out of lockdown.

I also think that, whatever MA your daughter learns, it is in her best intersts when the times is right, to spar with male opponents. Sparring is friendly, controlled violence and is great for helping females to learn how to hit males very hard in the face and body (obviously pads are used).

Also good boxing and judo classes will help kids understand the limitations of their skills.

I have seen lots of not very good martial arts trainings for women and children where the instructor imparts a false sense of badassery onto students, potentially placing them at risk of harm.

Due diligence is important

None of these sports are of any use to a 5’ girl who has been grabbed from behind by a 6’ man. Or to a boy who is being attacked by another boy wielding a machete. All children should be taught how to get away from an attacker, not how to fight back,

@Shodan

Self defence classes (imo) should, as a bare minimum:

Teach that the first rule is to not get yourself into a tricky situation in the first place.
Teach that the second rule is to run, if possible.
Teach simple, easy to learn techniques (and what to avoid).
Include some fitness.
Include at least one class where 'normal' clothing is worn- it's one thing to try a judo throw or karate kick in loose gis and bare feet- quite another to do it in a dress and heels.
Have some trained and willing males to practice on, at some point during the course/s.

Martial arts are fantastic, as a long term option. But not everyone wants to commit to that long term regime. (And I say this as a 3rd dan black belt, who has been training in karate for over 17 years.) A good, shorter term option should be available.

Completely agree. Ask a 12 year old to try to and fight a fully grown man. They’d never stand a chance.

Mixed sex sparring is fine, once you move past the beginner stage and have some confidence and sparring ability. For absolute beginners it can remove what little confidence they had to start with.

None of these sports are of any use to a 5’ girl who has been grabbed from behind by a 6’ man. Or to a boy who is being attacked by another boy wielding a machete.
All children should be taught how to get away from an attacker, not how to fight back,

Which is why box2bfit is good because it works on speed and general fitness.

None of these sports are of any use to a 5’ girl who has been grabbed from behind by a 6’ man. Or to a boy who is being attacked by another boy wielding a machete.

Any human being takes their life in their hands fighting an opponent with a machete, reagardless of age, body size and level of martial arts skill.

All children should be taught how to get away from an attacker, not how to fight back,

They are not mutually exclusive options though are they?

Why not train them to run away and to fight?

All children should be taught how to get away from an attacker, not how to fight back,

also often getting away is usually conditional on fighting back

training in fighting skills is not about training to the point where you will always be triumphant, as no such point exists.

It is about giving you the maximum number of options if you do get into a physical situation.

There are never guarantees

skip2bfit.com/senior-box2bfit?ref=box2bfit

Honestly not selling it but I have used it and it's very non Martial arts teacher friendly.

None of these sports are of any use to a 5’ girl who has been grabbed from behind by a 6’ man

This is something I brought up repeatedly with my karate instructor. Lovely bloke, but at 6'2" he hadn't really considered that things he was demonstrating were literally physically impossible for most women. Things like grabs, throws- even punches, either couldn't be done or if managed, would be fairly ineffectual.

Hence the development of my own classes

I can recommend krav maga. It specifically DOES teach 5’ girls how to break a hold when grabbed by a 6’ man, and how to floor him and incapacitate him long enough to run away!
DD did a full krav course, and now volunteers as security at feminist meetings and marches.