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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminist men, tell me about your journey?

54 replies

DeepThinkingGirl · 16/03/2021 21:42

Hi,

I would like to ask feminist men about how they started learning about feminism and what was their journey like.

Especially those who couldn’t see the problems but started to see it after exposure to certain events or literature. What was it ?

Thanks

OP posts:
andyoldlabour · 17/03/2021 11:45

I wouldn't class myself as a "feminist", but I would say that I am an ally to women. I recognise the patriarchy, it does exist, misogyny exists and maybe it is stronger and more toxic now than it has ever been.
I was brought up to respect women, to be polite, so I tended to be a bit shy, definitely not an "Alpha" male, although I was very competitive at sports. I went to mixed schools and I found it easy to speak to girls. When I started work in the mid seventies in a very large organisation, I worked in a mixed office of around a dozen people, and we seemed to get along really well.
Fast forward to the present, I have been married for thirty years to a lovely woman who was born in Iran. We never had children but we always had each other through what have been recently, some very difficult times.
I only became really aware of Feminism in 2018, when a certain cyclist won a masters championship. I saw the cyclist on the podium, dwarfing the women either side and instantly knew that this was not right. In fact, at first I didn't believe it. However, after reading more articles, I started a thread on a cycling forum and I was very dismayed at some of the replies. I joined Mumsnet, because it seemed that this was the only place I could have a conversation about it. I then learned about a certain Labour women's officer who went to school in the same town as I did. I was then shocked by the Hyde Park attack and the sheer vitriol of the TRA's.
As I became more aware, read more articles, it became obvious that one side was willing to destroy people's lives - women's lives - in order to advance their agenda.
I also became painfully aware, that three political parties (now four with the SNP) have fully aligned themselves with this movement, meaning that I and many others find themselves in a political wilderness.
To sum up. I may not have a daughter, but I do have a wife. I may no longer play any sports, but I enjoy watching them and I care about the girls and women who want to succeed at those sports. I also want the same girls and women to feel safe in female spaces, be they changing rooms, hospital wards, refuges or women's prisons. Wherever they need/want a safe space, it should be reserved for human females.

DeepThinkingGirl · 17/03/2021 11:50

Over a period of perhaps three to five years my viewpoint changed entirely purely from reading sites and doing a lot of thinking. I don't think I am at the end of this change now over ten years in the making, I am sure my thinking will change further still. I would not describe myself as a feminist as FamilyOfAliens said I am not welcome to join the ranks. I have no intention of becoming an 'Ally' either and would reject the label if any feminist put on me for a variety of reasons. What I do though is teach both my sons (I have no daughters) about why women are oppressed, teach them the history of crapness women have had, stamp hard on any misogynist opinions they hear/repeat to me and I donate a small portion of my salary to womens causes and stand up for girls as a school governor.

Wow Findwen thanks for your thorough post. It gave me so much insight and answers that I needed to hear. Gives me hope !

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Pan2 · 17/03/2021 11:58

andyoldlabour

Thanks for your post and info. A lot resonates, esp the Hyde Park assault and RM's podium - such iconic moments. Grew up with the 'old' Stonewall, marched and protested under it's banner, and recognise none of it's principles now. But my org. is a S/wall Champion....
Also I ride a bike, a lot - the 'club' world of bikists is very male dominated unfortunately.
(wife is also Asian-descent, with VERY GC views..) Take care.

ArabellaScott · 17/03/2021 13:40

I'll speak for my DP. He's very supportive of feminists, equity and women in general, but says he can't be a feminist because he's not a woman (he is more in accordance with the rad fem position on this than I am).

He didn't understand the probelm with TWAW at first, but eventually it clicked and is now just as horrified if not more so than I am.

It will largely translate into his voting.

DeepThinkingGirl · 17/03/2021 13:53

He didn't understand the probelm with TWAW at first, but eventually it clicked and is now just as horrified if not more so than I am.

How did it click finally? Through his own research and through your discussing and prompting him?

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DeepThinkingGirl · 17/03/2021 13:56

andyoldlabour thank you so much for sharing your journey, it’s so heartening to see that most men who can empathise with feminists are those who naturally have empathy towards the strong women in their lives. And are emotionally healthy and strong men.

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MrsTerryPratchett · 17/03/2021 14:14

I'll speak for DH because I've asked him before. I asked, "are you a feminist" and he said, 'no, because I know what that word means'. Grin

I'd say strong mother, strong sister who he lived with and saw what she had to deal with. She's a nurse so yuk. Now he has DD to worry about.

He's a pretty unevolved man in many ways. He's not right-on or woke or a leftie. Just not an idiot. He's one of the reasons I find it so hard to understand why everyone doesn't get it. It's so bloody obvious.

ArabellaScott · 17/03/2021 14:17

Er, I can't remember. Many nights of me talking about it ... I forget what the precise moment was when he stopped nodding along and went 'you what?' I'll ask him later!

NecessaryScene1 · 17/03/2021 14:46

Wouldn't call myself a feminist.

I just recognise women as people, and I can see a bunch of people who are being treated like complete shit - apparently the only group of people who are not allowed to campaign for their own rights, all the while being clearly the most distinct and oppressed group of humans due to basic material reality.

Was bullied at school, so recognise bullying when I see it. Plus I'm rather autistic-ish, so totally incapable of ignoring reality or patterns of behaviour no matter how much social pressure or make-up is involved. I just can't do make-believe.

I think I'm what radfems call female-identified. From a single-mother family, only sisters, so a lack of male role models, and I've always struggled more to understand and connect with men.

So it's a combo of that, and knowing what shits men can be, being one myself. I don't trust any man who would try to deny what it is to be a man - deny the strength, sexual urges...

I had totally failed to grasp exactly how much raw misogyny there was out there until I saw how easily this "trans-vs-women" thing took off, and how women objecting were treated. The "biggest patriarchal unmasking imaginable" was how i think Jane Clare Jones put it once.

First inkling of "huh?" was me getting a comment deleted on the Guardian's CiF when I said something about the apparent dominance of transwomen vs transmen in various fields only being surprising if you forget what sex they actually are. Hmm

Started following it fully around the Dolezal/Jenner time (woman of the year? Confused), and the Maria McLachlan assault. Never had to climb any mountain - just had to become aware that demands (and not requests!) had gone a long way past socially accommodating the traditional transsexual, and that a lot of people had started talking obvious sex-denying bollocks, and accepting very bad behaviour.

And then from there I've realised that this isn't just the trans thing - there's a much wider detachment from reality and incipient authoritarianism going on, which is ultimately even more serious. But the trans thing is the most obviously stupid, and it feels the most effective ground for me to fight on, particularly in the UK.

I think my DP is a bit fed up with hearing about it - but then she'll hear the latest idiocy about sports (which is her area), and she'll go off on one too. :)

DoctorTwo · 17/03/2021 15:27

My first job after leaving college was in a workplace nursery. On my second morning there the leader said she wanted me to greet everyone at the door so the parents could see how their kids and I interacted. I did so but was unaware as to why she wanted me to do this until later. Apparently the dads(!) thought it was 'inappropriate' for a man to be providing care for their children.

Since then I have gone with the assumption that the person doing the job is in the role because he or she is qualified, like the surgeon who will be dealing with my oesophogeal pouch. She explained all options, and we agreed on the best one. Actually, as she's the expert I agreed with her.

None of that answers your question @DeepThinkingGirl and I suppose I should apologise. Sorry. No, I'm not a feminist, never have been, never can be.

I think the gender thing is bollocks and use my tiny Twitter account to say so, and know that if I was female I'd have been banned ages ago by the pronoun police.

Now to press post before I lose my nerve. :o

Pan2 · 17/03/2021 16:16

Afternoon Doctor - my, you've been in the wars.

Really hope all goes well for you.

JurgenKloppsCat · 17/03/2021 16:23

I'm a son, husband and dad (boy and girl). I saw the thread title and as I opened it I thought ' I wonder how long before someone tells the OP that she's wrong and men can't be feminists!' Grin

Anyway, I'm not. I view feminism like I view the Labour Party. I like the founding principles, its basic tenets of fairness and a desire for equality of opportunity. I don't like the extremist nutters. But my views broadly align. The broader, less extreme pillars of feminism align with my basic beliefs of how a society should function. There was never a lightbulb moment. I never treated my daughter differently to my son. I never had different expectations for them, in that I never encouraged them to go in a certain direction. They both learned about washing, ironing, tidying, cooking and all the other skills they need to survive independently. My daughter is the outgoing extrovert, who got a good degree and meets the world head on. My son is quieter, an introvert, who needs a kick up the arse frequently to get out there.

Unlike the rather doom-and-gloom atmosphere on here, I'm confident in her and her future. She will meet challenges, there are still a few barriers, but the difference in opportunities that she has, compared to my wife and my mum, is huge.

Oh, to boost my street cred - I got booted off a Labour Party subreddit for arguing that trans women deserve care and respect, but can't just do as they please when it impacts directly on others. One of the moderators took exception, gave me a right mouthful and banned me. And that mod was a woman. Still, it's a complicated old world.

DeepThinkingGirl · 17/03/2021 16:24

DoctorTwo and NecessaryScene1 thank you so much you’re experience is interesting.

It seems that experiencing gender based discrimination on your self or loved one does trigger empathy in most people.

And I agree the Trans issue was totally what triggered me to understand better about how women and their experiences are totally marginalized in favor of men.. and led me to read into feminism and realise that a lot of my experiences as a women weren’t just me and my head but actually the day to day life of every woman out there and shockingly silenced which is why I didn’t get to hear of it!

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DdraigGoch · 17/03/2021 19:02

I haven't an awful lot to add to what has been said above but I would say that men who say that they are 'feminists' are very much like the men who say "I'm a nice guy, why won't anyone sleep with me?". I don't tar myself with their brush, I'm merely an 'ally'.

I grew up watching Heartbeat and The Royal on ITV. These were set in 1960s Yorkshire, one focusing on a village Bobby, the other on a hospital. The '60s were obviously a key time for social change and both programs covered issues like women in the workplace, access to contraception, access to abortion, domestic violence, and attitudes towards victims of rape (by male and female officers). I think that the shows influenced me a lot.

I work on the railways. Still a heavily male-dominated industry though far less than it used to be. I heard that another employer had a stand at a recruitment event where a 15 year old girl asked the manager whether "women were allowed to drive trains". I do not know the precise wording of the response but the only correct response is "of course they are, why wouldn't they be?" I find it sad that girls are still being brought up believing that entire professions are off-limits to them. As it happens, many of those who instruct in such fields will say that it is actually easier to teach a woman to drive a train or fly a plane than it is to teach a man. Freight operators are a little bit further behind as welfare facilities in some locations are little more than "find a bush" but things are improving slowly.

There are still individual managers in the dark ages. I overheard a conversation between two female colleagues from another depot about the experience of one of them returning from maternity leave. She'd had twins and requested an entirely reasonable adjustment to reduce the impact of childcare costs. The manager was refusing this - obviously anyone asking to work 9-5 would be laughed out of the room as we are a 24hr business but it is quite normal for staff to have permanent shift swaps with each other so that one is on permanent early shifts and the other was on permanent lates. The manager simply could not understand why twins were difficult to manage when "so many people have two children", they just wouldn't accept that children normally come one at a time so you can spread the costs and take advantage of hand-me-downs to manage financially. Conversely a colleague of mine who joined at a different depot shortly AFTER their youngest was born had no problem getting permission. Incidentally the woman in the latter case had been treated badly by her previous employer who cut her hours as soon as she became pregnant. There is a woman at the latter depot who was just starting training when she became pregnant and the company found her alternative duties to keep her productive until she went on maternity leave and once back (and training resumed after a covid hiatus) she could start training. So I have heard of vastly different attitudes within the same employer.

As a guard, particularly during these times, I can see how my presence or absence affects anti-social behaviour. Seeing fag ash in the toilet sinks makes it clear that anti-social behaviour has worsened onboard during the pandemic which means that sexual offences will have done so too. Before the pandemic, I chucked a creep off of a train at 1am. Now that we are told not to enter the saloon due to risk of infection, I would have been completely unaware of him. I also know of guards who have accompanied women to taxi ranks or waited with them while their lift arrived because someone has been following them. This sort of thing is why the government really should think twice about destaffing:

I have been groped once or twice - drunken female customers old enough to be my mother, men and women in night clubs, that sort of thing. Particularly in a position where one cannot fight back (I can hardly tell a customer to keep her hands to herself) it was deeply uncomfortable. Those were isolated occasions, merely a minor snapshot of what many women go through daily. I cannot begin to comprehend what it is like to suffer from sexual harassment multiple times per day, in the knowledge that if things get physical a female victim's best chance of staying alive may be to freeze and pray for it to end. I have only ever felt true "I might die now" fear a couple of times. I can imagine that many women come across that feeling every time they pass down a darkened alley.

I'm probably on the autistic spectrum so take exception to people arguing that black is white when it so obviously isn't. You can wear mascara and call yourself Deborah with no complaints from me but if you win a women's race despite being male, you are a cheat in my view.

toffeebutterpopcorn · 17/03/2021 19:34

Since at school. Mum was very much a weird mix of 1950s housewife (she was born in the 30s) with the attitude that women were, in fact superior to to men. I found feminist magazines when I was at school. That was back when feminists actually were feminists.

I thought things were getting better then that person belted Maria in Hyde Park (and the following trial where the judge demanded Maria address them as ‘she’) and I though ‘it’s on!’

ErrolTheDragon · 18/03/2021 09:02

I'm pleased to see Pan2 started a thread on Dadsnet, but I'd guess not many of the male MNers have actually seen it - perhaps some of the contributors to this thread would like to participate? (Obviously I'm going to do nothing other than signpost it.)

So chaps.. men's violence on women. What are we saying? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/dadsnet/4192618-So-chaps-mens-violence-on-women-What-are-we-saying

DeepThinkingGirl · 18/03/2021 09:05

I am also so pleased!! Thanks for sharing Enrol!

And thanks for starting the thread Pan2!! You’re voices of reform are important to us!

I love this post by SkedaddIe

We need to do more for the next generation. And perhaps that can start by recognising and accepting we are on the pyramid instead of focusing on the apex and namalting

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9toenails · 18/03/2021 10:26

I am a man. I remember, decades ago when I was more politically active than I have been for a while, and women's groups started barring men from their meetings (not sure what 'wave' this was), I thought, well, women surely have a veto over who they let in. I think the same about being a feminist, or calling myself a feminist, now. Some women don't want men to be included, and they have a veto.

I have had good women friends, and I actually believe women are the main hope for humanity.

As for my 'journey', well, my mother taught me some stuff as a child. She was one of nine children -- one of those big working class families of the time. (Some of the children died, of course, always seemed to happen a lot back then before penicillin and vaccines and the NHS.) Anyway, although naturally a SAHM, married to a lovely man my father who of course did not a stroke of housework or cooking, nevertheless my mum had always resented having to wait hand-and-foot on her brothers (she had some horrendous tales to tell about this), and so taught her sons how to cook and do chores and also generally to treat women half-way decently. And to be moral . She was a smart woman, my mother.

So, well, look around the world. Women are treated like shit. That is wrong.

I read Female Eunuch when it first came out. Convinced. Always liked Germaine. (Nice story there, but outing ...) Other stuff too. (Never much liked po-mo or po-struct, or Hélène Cixous & co: for françaises stick with de Beauvoir. I know; I am far too narrow ...) I worked with some women in national and local politics, enjoyed the company of left-wing women. Professionally, too.

When I was young, I surely treated some women less well than they deserved. I was sort of a man's man -- rugby, football, drink, usual hedonism of a mid-twentieth-century young man. But still, egalitarian child I was, equality for women, I could see, was morally imperative even amongst the hedonism.

I have been more or less monogamous for a good while now -- well over fifty years come to think of it. It suits me. Children are a joy, grandchildren too.

But let me say it again. Look around. Women are treated like shit. In some ways things have gone backwards. (But then not just for women, perhaps. Not many of you will remember 1963 when Baron Home of the Hirsel , 14th Earl, 'emerged' as Tory leader and Prime Minister from the grouse moors and the House of Lords. The country laughed and laughed: did they not know that Eton shit was over? Over! Anyway, next election, Harold Wilson and ... well, here we are again, over fifty years down the line, one Etonian shit fucked us out of the EU and now another Etonian shit is just fucking us. And people vote for this! Oh, well.)

Sorry, not really about feminism that last bit. My 'journey', though, I guess. Things for women, anyway, are not getting any better in this country while it is still run by the Etonians. And there you have a really good example of how progress can never be taken for granted. We cannot relax. (Yes, I accept some blame for relaxing. It worries me we took our eye off the ball after the war, we lucky survivors. If only ... But that is a different game.)

Still I have hope in my own offspring, women and men, girls and boys. And in you women of Mumsnet. Keep up the good fight. I know it must seem a burden sometimes, being the hope of humanity. But you are women. You are strong. Do it for our children.

As for getting your brother and other men on-board, OP, well, some men, ime, just will not. But any half-decent bloke; point out how, around the world, and even here at home, women are treated so badly. Feminism, like all egalitarian movements, is above all about morality: it is plain wrong the way women so often get the short end of so many sticks. If a man cannot see that when it is pointed out, he is not worth your time.

I know, you may have to do it for yourselves. I really hope you can, even though I guess I will not be around to see it.

andyoldlabour · 18/03/2021 12:52

ErrolTheDragon

Thanks for that, never even knew it existed Grin

DeepThinkingGirl · 18/03/2021 13:11

Indeed, I really think there needs to be a safe space for men to talk about how they can support feminism without being judged by other men, so they can brainstorm together..

But under female leadership because ultimately no one can assume they’re being helpful to women unless they’re being told by a woman what’s helpful and what’s not. So this site is perfect to do that.

It might help with developing the language and tools needed for men to dismantle any toxicity around them. I know this site helped me develop deeper insight and awareness and enabled me to open conversation with people about deeply entrenched societal issues to do with women when I had my daughter and I wanted a different world for her and I’m sure it can do the same to a men/father.

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JustSpeculation · 18/03/2021 13:17

@DeepThinkingGirl

Indeed, I really think there needs to be a safe space for men to talk about how they can support feminism without being judged by other men, so they can brainstorm together..

But under female leadership because ultimately no one can assume they’re being helpful to women unless they’re being told by a woman what’s helpful and what’s not. So this site is perfect to do that.

It might help with developing the language and tools needed for men to dismantle any toxicity around them. I know this site helped me develop deeper insight and awareness and enabled me to open conversation with people about deeply entrenched societal issues to do with women when I had my daughter and I wanted a different world for her and I’m sure it can do the same to a men/father.

Not "under female leadership" because if you want men to do it, you've got to let us do it. But certainly with female input. And you're spot on about the language and tools, because that's half the issue. The other half is probably just noticing things.
ErrolTheDragon · 18/03/2021 14:06

@andyoldlabour

ErrolTheDragon

Thanks for that, never even knew it existed Grin

You're welcome!Flowers I'm not surprised you didn't know it was there tbh... I looked at the dadsnet board a few years ago for some reason, it seemed to be largely tumbleweed and a Tesla appreciation thread (the man, not the machine) iirc.
DeepThinkingGirl · 18/03/2021 14:30

Perhaps we need mumsnet to look into adding a section for men (even not father ) who want a space to discuss contributing positively to women’s rights activism especially when it comes to issues of sexual related violence ? And perhaps host a few webinars with reformist men who might shake things up a little and attract more attention ?

I think providing a platform for the positive efforts is a proactive way to redirect things, and challenge the narrative.

I wonder if anyone agrees

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bourbonne · 18/03/2021 14:44

It's bloody hard because obviously not all women who call themselves feminists agree with each other on basic issues. Anything calling itself feminist is immediately targeted for capture. So if some well-intentioned men got together to listen to feminists and be led by a woman/women, they're not necessarily going to be encouraged in the direction we might hope. They might well be told that what women really want is mixed-sex loos, etc.

bourbonne · 18/03/2021 14:50

(I literally got this from my DH. I said that of course nobody actually likes mixed sex loos, least not women. He said, confused, "but some people campaign for them". I said "Women?!". He said "yes", as though this was obvious.

We move in different circles...)