Identifying as a witch as a feminist statement

[BilboBercow]

Is that a bit bonkers? I've been thinking about it for a while, I really enjoy a bit of woo although I'm not what I'd describe as a believer in magic.

I'm going through a period right now where I'm particularly angry with the patriarchy, trying to deal with an abusive ex, outraged at what I see as the escalation of femicide during the pandemic, I'm also listening to a podcast on Scottish witch trials and I particularly identify with these (mosty) women who were executed by the state for being a bit different. Scotland tried over 4k people for witchcraft, higher per capita than anywhere in Europe.

Has anyone done this, or considered it?

I would like to identify as Granny Weatherwax but I think I'm more realistically Agnes without the voice....

You don't need a coven. Solitary practice is by far the most common. You don't have to identify with, or as, anything (and males can be witches too).

There are all manner of different forms. The serious herbalists are only one form of (green) witch. There are some who don't touch tarot or any form of divination. Some invoke deities, others see themselves as entirely secular. Almost all revere nature, and some believe the universe is a higher power with an energy anyone can learn to channel. But unlike the monotheistic, patriarchal religions, there will be no one telling you what to do. The idea is that you find your own path.

I think a typical accused witch was a poor widow who lived in a derelict cottage at the end of the village, all alone except for a half-starved cat. She'd be on the edge of insanity from malnutrition and loneliness, and the children would come and taunt her and throw stones, and she'd shout at them. Then if one of the children got ill and died, as children so often did then, of course she'd be blamed.

@TeiTetua absolutely! I attended a talk on the Pendle ‘witches’ and they were the poorest of the poor, absolutely reviled and desperate people.

I often think of that talk when I see the television shows where we are invited to laugh at the less fortunate and be grateful we are not the object of derision.

All the references to Terry Pratchett just reminded me that there's a feminist analysis of 'Lords and Ladies' in the most recent edition of The Radical Notion - well worth a look if you're interested.

@DaisiesandButtercups

How do we go about finding these dianic covens in the UK? Is there a website? I noticed that the book by Z Budapest is currently out of print.

I'd love to know this. Happily solitary most of the time, but more and more I feel myself heading into Dianic Wiccan territory. I really feel the need for something women-only. I am tired of men (no offense to my lovely DH or DS intended, but just a women's space would be nice), I'm tired of NAMALT, I'm tired of TWAW, tired of TERF and possibly of acronyms, abbreviations and initialisms in general...

I have some female-centric tarot decks and they are getting a LOT more use at the moment.

Another practising Pagan here. Plenty of male witches out there too, and some victims of the witch trials were men (admittedly not the majority). I was in a Dianic group for a time, now on my tod. I’m a gender-quizzical feminist, not to say feeling a bit confused by the world these days.

I think a typical accused witch was a poor widow who lived in a derelict cottage at the end of the village, all alone except for a half-starved cat. She'd be on the edge of insanity from malnutrition and loneliness, and the children would come and taunt her and throw stones, and she'd shout at them. Then if one of the children got ill and died, as children so often did then, of course she'd be blamed

That's not how the victims of the Pendle Witches, or the Lancaster Assizes, saw it. For all we might think of an early 17th century court, it was actually very sympathetic toward a child witness. See the image I posted

Jennet Device (age 9) bravely gave testimony in court against her own family, who were accused of, among other things,
Incest
Child abuse
Murder/conspiracy to commit murder
Poisoning neighbours livestock
"Bondage" (slavery)
Racketeering
Aggressive begging

Devlesko
If you practice witchcraft then you are a witch
If you don't you aren't you choose whatever occupation you do have

Yes Devlesko, and it's a from me too

I've been asked many times if I'm a witch and I prefer to keep them guessing, whether friend or stranger.

My shop is a weird mix of esoteric related items, vintage and Gothic stuff including clothes and I do tarot cards. I spend alot of time explaining I regard them as psychological tools as we have control of our destiny, and the cards just help identify patterns and archetypes that may be useful dependent on the motivation of a reading.

I'm a Goth - I only felt able to embrace my desired choices when I got into my 40s and experienced a very complex mid-life crisis post divorce. I wear alot of black and I have a woollen witchy hat. I wear a reversed pentagram as it represents the feminine. I'm often asked if I worship Satan - firm nope - because he doesn't exist for me. In fact I don't worship anything because I don't like the concept of worship at all - rather unhealthy tbh.

I know a bit about alot of things and never stop learning.

What is witchcraft? It encompasses a whole range of normal stuff - herbalism (not my bag), connecting with nature, spell casting - which is in line with new age "positive thinking" and intention work. The concept of witchcraft comes from mainly women doing things that they felt were helpful but other people didn't like / understand due to their own beliefs and prejudices.

Witch as we understand it today is being used as a symbol of empowerment, acknowledging that women are feared and revered and also a marketing tool to flog lots of pretty clothes and trinkets.

Each to their own - and harm ye none

Is identifying as witch a feminist thing? I don't see why not - it shows solidarity with persecuted women who were misunderstood, or eccentric, or too big for their boots, and the recognition that because some people are resentful of women in general, they will never tire of finding ways to make our lives more difficult.

If anyone can identify as anything and be validated for it, why not identify as a witch? It's a great opener at social gatherings if you want interesting conversations all night

I would like to join the Terry Pratchett coven here, identifying as Tiffany Aching please. I'd like to sit at the feet of Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg, but I expect they'd prefer me to make myself useful instead.

Sorry, I meant if you practice witchcraft you are a witch, if you don't you're whatever else you do to define yourself.
Perhaps I misunderstood, but don't see the problem in being a witch and a feminist.
I saw a documentary on Pendle Witches as this is close to where I live.
That was a reult of whichever king it was in Scotland and religion.
Gosh, I remember a lot, better watch it again
Do we face the same problems today?

[quote Worldgonecrazy]@TeiTetua absolutely! I attended a talk on the Pendle ‘witches’ and they were the poorest of the poor, absolutely reviled and desperate people.

I often think of that talk when I see the television shows where we are invited to laugh at the less fortunate and be grateful we are not the object of derision.[/quote]
A really interesting story, poor little Jennet sold all her family down the river and later found herself in the worst position.
I saw it on amazon Prime. Took out a month free trial Well worth a watch.

same position, couldn't be any worse than being hanged.

@Flaxmeadow

Devlesko If you practice witchcraft then you are a witch If you don't you aren't you choose whatever occupation you do have

Yes Devlesko, and it's a from me too

Sorry, talking my usual gibberish again

Jennet Device (age 9) bravely gave testimony in court against her own family, who were accused of, among other things,
Incest
Child abuse
Murder/conspiracy to commit murder
Poisoning neighbours livestock
"Bondage" (slavery)
Racketeering
Aggressive begging

Are you seriously suggesting that the court was right to give uncritical credence to the testimony of a 9 year old girl, Jennet Device?

Jennet denounced her mother and all of her family and most of her neighbours as witches. Ten people were hanged because of Jennet's accusations and the resulting snowballing of accusations and counter accusations amongst the impoverished community where Jennet grew up.

There is an excellent documentary about the trials here, that makes use of the court documents and contains verbatim accounts of some of the the accusations.

The documentary includes the testimony of another child, a young boy, who at a subsequent witch trial claimed to have been turned into a horse by a witch who had originally taken the form of a dog.

I have no idea whether Jennet was a victim of incest and sexual abuse, however the fact that she accused pretty much her entire community of being witches and murderers suggests that any allegations that she made should be treated with skepticism.

Also, none of Jennet's victims identified as witches. Witchcraft was something you were accused of, not some that people "identified as"

I would recommend this video about the truth of modern witchcraft

This is also fabulous

Haxan ; Witchcraft Through the Ages 1922

hoodathunkit

I've seen those before. I really like Simon Armitage, hes quite well known here as having an interest in local history (North of England) and has an interesting take on it. He doesn't take sides and is sympathetic to Jennet Device.

I'm very interested in north of England local history myself, and have researched this case for many years.

Are you seriously suggesting that the court was right to give uncritical credence to the testimony of a 9 year old girl, Jennet Device?

Within the context of times, I believe they were given a fair and very open trial. I believe something happened and it was something very serious. I also believe it involved the ritual abuse of children. Which still happens today in many parts the world, and children still die in "withcraft" ceremonies

Have you read Thomas Potts first hand account of the trial? We have to remember that language used at the time can have different meaning now. We hear evidence ar the trial, for example, of creatures entering properties, that these animals speak and are party to the conspiracy. We might think "oh thats ridiculous, how can anyone believe that," but in the trial and in the context of the times, they are described as having the "likeness" of animals. In witchcraft ceremonies, and even in old folk festivals, adults did and do dress up as animals, wear the skins of animals. This can be totally innocent, Morris Dancing for example, but back then it could mean it was also used to to intimidate the more vulnerable. I believe everyone knew that of course they were not real "animal demons" but that it was some kind of intimidation being used to silence ot confuse the victims and so the court. Also that these crimes were indeed "devilish practices". Language like that is still used today in newspaper headlines to describe our most serious crimes and especially against children

I've read many text from the 17th century and I believe this is what was happening

@hoodathunkit

Jennet Device (age 9) bravely gave testimony in court against her own family, who were accused of, among other things, Incest Child abuse Murder/conspiracy to commit murder Poisoning neighbours livestock "Bondage" (slavery) Racketeering Aggressive begging

Are you seriously suggesting that the court was right to give uncritical credence to the testimony of a 9 year old girl, Jennet Device?

Jennet denounced her mother and all of her family and most of her neighbours as witches. Ten people were hanged because of Jennet's accusations and the resulting snowballing of accusations and counter accusations amongst the impoverished community where Jennet grew up.

There is an excellent documentary about the trials here, that makes use of the court documents and contains verbatim accounts of some of the the accusations.

The documentary includes the testimony of another child, a young boy, who at a subsequent witch trial claimed to have been turned into a horse by a witch who had originally taken the form of a dog.

I have no idea whether Jennet was a victim of incest and sexual abuse, however the fact that she accused pretty much her entire community of being witches and murderers suggests that any allegations that she made should be treated with skepticism.

Also, none of Jennet's victims identified as witches. Witchcraft was something you were accused of, not some that people "identified as"

She was 9 years old and her testimony had far reaching effects ito child witnesses. Not so good for their family and neighbours though. Wasn't she coerced though, it didn't come from her.

Whoops, sorry thanks for the link

So Wicca is a religion created in the 1940s by an eccentric male nudist whose doctrines were a synchretic mix and blend of appropriated material from various sources including ancient Egyptian texts and grimoires, mostly I believe from the Key of Solomon the King.

It seems to me that Wicca has represented itself as a religion of ancient wisdom for modern times, however it is a very new religious movement.

Personally I find the plethora of consumerist goods and businesses associated with Wicca to be dubious.

I can relate to the elements of being in nature and finding nature deeply spiritual, but I don't feel the need to dress up in robes, chant, attend naked rituals or accumulate a load of new age items in order to experience nature as transformational and divine.

When our society and sex based rights are being undermined by a tidal wave of magical thinking and supernatural beliefs it makes no senes to me to identify as a witch.

Within the context of times, I believe they were given a fair and very open trial. I believe something happened and it was something very serious. I also believe it involved the ritual abuse of children. Which still happens today in many parts the world, and children still die in "withcraft" ceremonies

I would love to know more about these "witchcraft" ceremonies that children still die in today.

The only deaths of this kind that I know about are of the poor children murdered by their communities who falsely accuse the children of Kindoke or of being witches.

There the cases of some Muti murders in some parts of Africa. There are also rare examples of "Tantriks" and "shamans" murdering children in Asia.

Is that what you mean?

Yes worldwide but there have also been a few cases in the UK linked to witchcraft. A torso was found in the Thames in 2001, still unidentified and thought to be linked to witchcraft

Have you read Thomas Potts first hand account of the trial?
no

We have to remember that language used at the time can have different meaning now.

Of course

We hear evidence ar the trial, for example, of creatures entering properties, that these animals speak and are party to the conspiracy. We might think "oh thats ridiculous, how can anyone believe that,"

Of course we would think that. It is the most reasonable and likely thing to think, especially given that children are prone to telling all kinds of fantastical tales.

There have been cases in Africa where villagers were burned to death following witchcraft allegations by small children. Either the children were telling the truth or they were telling fantastic tales typical of young children. The most likely answer is usually the right one surely?

but in the trial and in the context of the times, they are described as having the "likeness" of animals. In witchcraft ceremonies, and even in old folk festivals, adults did and do dress up as animals, wear the skins of animals.

Er, Okay, but of course a 9 year old child would know the difference between a real animal and a person in a mask, obviously

This can be totally innocent, Morris Dancing for example, but back then it could mean it was also used to to intimidate the more vulnerable. I believe everyone knew that of course they were not real "animal demons" but that it was some kind of intimidation being used to silence ot confuse the victims and so the court.

Or it could be a little girl from a hideously deprived, unloving background enjoying being the centre of attention from a crowd of adults who, for the first time in her life, made her feel important?

Also that these crimes were indeed "devilish practices". Language like that is still used today in newspaper headlines to describe our most serious crimes and especially against children

I think it most likely that any crimes committed were mundane and the result of extreme poverty, deprivation, a lack of education and competition over limited resources.

I find it very difficult to understand how you have come to the conclusion that have done.