Can we have a thread about men who DO get this?

[ShoppingWomble]

So frustrated with the male half of humanity this week - all the NAMALTing and "more men get murdered than women" and "well, you wouldn't wear an expensive watch in a rough area" crap (thanks Trigger boys).

I know this is centring men on the feminism page but can we please find some decent guys who are trying to help and not just laugh at women before I have to go and live on an all-female island somewhere?

Glinner obvs. Any more?

Ricky Gervais and John Clees definitely get it. It is good when high profile people get it and speak about it. I am just another random bloke, so if I talk about the issues or contact sports organisations to question them about their policies (British Cycling) they can just brush me off and not worry about it. They can't do it that easily with a known face.

All of this is new to my Nigel, but he instinctively "gets it". His suggestion for the census was "what were you born with:" and a box for F (fanny) or W (willy).

More seriously, I work in a male-dominated STEM subject and this week the (male) president of our student soc sent out a message of solidarity to all female staff and students, detailing the ways men could pro-actively amend their behaviour and call out their peers.

I think that the majority of men do understand the issues, however the aggressive language alienates as do generalisations . Most people male and female are concerned with the everyday issues or working, sorting out children, family issues, finance etc - they are just go about their life. I also think a large proportion of women do the same , our lives are more influenced by our immediate family and workplace. Most makes are not aggressive or sexist they just get on with their life - but given some of the suggestions eg curfew at 6, and language saying that women fear all men I think that will be less inclined to engage in any conversation about these issues

Yes twelly I agree that people just want to get on with their lives, especially in an individualistic society where no-one is really responsible for people's welfare other than their own family group. It's just the casual shrugging it off that infuriates me, especially from men who could have influence if they wanted to.

I was watching Jackson Katz's video about the bystander approach which made a lot of sense:

Also about male leadership and that it's a failure of leadership for men to not challenge other men about male violence.

I see Boris's approach is more streetlights and police in pubs rather than trying to challenge bad male behaviour. I just wanted to hear some men talk about male responsibility to try and fix things rather than victim blaming.

I've noticed that while younger women in the arts and media almost always have pronouns in their Twitter bio, some even leading with them, with men in the same fields, unless they're LGBTQ+, it's very rare. I think far more men 'get it', if we're talking about gender ideology, than young women: they've certainly come under less pressure from TRAs to knuckle under and 're-educate themselves'.

Does Another Angry Voice 'get it' I've seen him go after women who even vaguely mention anything pro women/GC in the comments often. He's really quite nasty with women at times, along with his sniggering woke army, he'll even make false statements about whoever he's berating.

@IvyTwines

I've noticed that while younger women in the arts and media almost always have pronouns in their Twitter bio, some even leading with them, with men in the same fields, unless they're LGBTQ+, it's very rare. I think far more men 'get it', if we're talking about gender ideology, than young women: they've certainly come under less pressure from TRAs to knuckle under and 're-educate themselves'.

I've noticed this, it's overwhelmingly women who have pronouns in their Twitter profiles, not men. I suspect that most men - if their employers told them to add pronouns to emails - would either not bother or would play awkward by adding comedy ones. "My pronouns are 'AH/64'. You must address me as an Apache helicopter on alternate Tuesdays and supply me with paraffin".

I think a really difficult aspect of this is that so many of the men who proclaim themselves to 'get it' are actually total arseholes - beardy wokebros more interested in telling women why they're doing feminism wrong than actually helping.

@ShoppingWomble

So frustrated with the male half of humanity this week - all the NAMALTing and "more men get murdered than women" and "well, you wouldn't wear an expensive watch in a rough area" crap (thanks Trigger boys).

I know this is centring men on the feminism page but can we please find some decent guys who are trying to help and not just laugh at women before I have to go and live on an all-female island somewhere?

Glinner obvs. Any more?

Have you seen what Glinner has said about women he disagrees with? Seriously?

Do tell, @DisgustedofManchester. Has he threatened to 'choke them with his man dick'? Because that's the control group in this little experiment.

@GNCQ

There's someone I follow on Facebook and Twitter called "Another Angry Voice" He actually used to post here on the MN "Politics" board, but got banned for promoting his own blog. I won't share his real identity, most people have never heard of him but he has a solid following.

He completely gets it.

Thanks for this now following

@Emanchego

Does Another Angry Voice 'get it' I've seen him go after women who even vaguely mention anything pro women/GC in the comments often. He's really quite nasty with women at times, along with his sniggering woke army, he'll even make false statements about whoever he's berating.

..... oh!

My partner pretty much gets it. Even says things to other men when they're being jerks. And tries to support women when they're having issues with some misogynist garbage.

But I remember the high and far off times when he only got some of the stuff sometimes. And I remember talking his ear off to get him to see it, until he finally said, "Yes, but if I admit it's all true, then the world is awful and there's nothing I can do about it."

At which point all I had to say was, "All you have to do is see it. Imagine living it."

So it happens if they care enough. Even with the ones who try not to get it, at first.

I find this a really hard question to be honest. I would say my exH gets it, because everything he openly says and does suggests he gets it. But then we split up because he was emotionally and sexually abusive in a very covert way, used a shed ton of porn and spent money on cam girls. So he could talk the talk but didn't walk the walk.

I think all men can get it intellectually but choose to opt out in certain circumstances and so I'm not sure how much help they actually are. Depressing.

My husband was sexually abused several times as a child by priests. He told his mother but she didn’t believe him. However as he grew up he compartmentalised his abuse and had very distant relationships with women. He spent a lot of time talking to women online in his previous relationships as a way to cope with undiagnosed PTSD - he was avoiding intimacy with the significant women in his life but also feeling a sense of power and entitlement over women on these chat forums. He couldn’t cope anymore after his second long term relationship broke up and he got therapy.

I met him as a survivor of rape myself - he listened very thoughtfully to my experience and did a lot to make me feel safe. He lost a job a few weeks into the relationship and had a nervous breakdown during which all this dreadful history of his came out. He’s had therapy since and worked really hard on himself. His attitude towards women has done a u turn - he has daughters and he’s very vocal and committed to their safety. His psychiatrist told him that the talking to other women was like a confessional - he never made an attempt to meet these other women, it was a secret - like his abuse had been kept secret.

He is now deeply ashamed of how he has regarded women for many years and said recently that the rift that had started with his abuse and mother had culminated in not being able to trust anyone - but also not being trustworthy in himself in the past. He has deep regrets. He works through his PTSD and he is very much supportive of me through all of this very complicated stuff that we both go through. He now calls out porn culture very vocally to other men - he says meeting another rape survivor broke open his compassion and it’s been a long healing process. I’m saying the is because I think that damaged men are also capable of turning around and finally seeing the humanity in others which leads to the healing of the humanity in themselves.

My daughters father is a green voter. He does get it a bit and has always been protective of women but he’s not looking into the twaw deeply because why would he? No skin in the game. I’m curious as to his response to the recent Green Party women’s chair news.

My DH doesn’t get it because he doesn’t understand why men are sexist etc. He’s the same with racism. It doesn’t make sense to him (nor me really but I experience sexism). He has autism. He was ostracised at university for not walking a girl back to their halls after an event. It didn’t occur to him he needed to and she didn’t ask. Although I do walk in the dark alone, I’m just wary when I do. And there’s probably a class element to this, I’m working class and more streetwise but also don’t pay for taxis when I should.

DH would also find it really hard to challenge sexism or men talking about women badly. He just sees women as equal and some people are dicks. While he doesn’t get it he is a good guy.

I was going to add Nazir Afzal (former Crown Prosecutor for the NW), and now he's helpfully contributed to a conversation alongside several other men who 'get it.'

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/mar/17/the-time-for-men-to-step-up-is-right-now-what-all-men-can-do-to-help-end-violence-against-women?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

Yes James Dreyfus is lovely.

This James Dreyfus (attached)? Lovely is not a word that springs to mind.

Hugo Rifkind

Who wrote this?

Nothing wrong with being a pick up artist
Hugo Rifkind Julien Blanc may have given them a bad name but the need for gurus like him shows how downtrodden many men feel

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nothing-wrong-with-being-a-pick-up-artist-8mw0kqf658z

WingsoverScotland - the man has repeatedly jumped to the defence of men accused of abusing women: www.betternation.org/2014/06/yes-together-robin-mcalpine-wings-over-scotland-and-the-progressive-whitewashing-of-misogyny/

Ricky Gervais

An LFN member attended a humanist event just before Christmas 2008 (newhumanist.org.uk/1917). Ricky Gervais was one of the acts and told ‘jokes’ about an 8 year old girl being sexually abused; first by a stranger, then by her father. He also ‘joked’ about raping an elderly lady, saying that it was ok because he didn’t kill her – he just raped her.

John Cleese, here blaming his problems with women on his mother and joking about having her and one of his former wives killed:

Do these men 'get it'? Or do they just hate trans people so their misogyny gets a free pass?

James Dreyfus wrote something that empathises with men? Oh no! Disown him now!

Trying to 'cancel' people this way is a tactic that shouldn't be used by anyone over the age of 25, tbh.

I don't think any man gets it because it doesn't directly impact their lives. If they understand it AND take direct action to influence other men I'd have some faith in them, but not if they are just intellectualising.

littleburn thanks for the link - an article that answers my question! and it's in the Guardian! (mixed emotions).

Thanks wandawomble (my long-lost relative!) for your moving personal account. I loved your last line:

I’m saying the is because I think that damaged men are also capable of turning around and finally seeing the humanity in others which leads to the healing of the humanity in themselves.

So encouraging. I think I'm tempted to polarise this into "good" and "bad" but people are so much more complicated. I really hope we as a society can learn from recent events.

(sorry that sounds pompous but it's how I feel)

And yes, agree with those calling out the beardy wokebros who talk about feminism but don't support women - deeds not words!

@notyourhandmaid

James Dreyfus wrote something that empathises with men? Oh no! Disown him now!

Trying to 'cancel' people this way is a tactic that shouldn't be used by anyone over the age of 25, tbh.

No, he made derogatory sexual remarks about a black female MP and appears to support prison rape.

It's not trying to cancel people to point out that men with a history of misogynist views probably don't 'get it', unless 'getting it' simply means objecting to trans rights.