Where New Zealand's surrogacy laws could be headed

[Dangertime]

www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/parenting/pregnancy/conception/300237663/where-new-zealands-surrogacy-laws-could-be-headed

Final cut n paste

'But surrogacy and adoption lawyer Stewart Dalley argues that same-sex couples, or single parents, are “inherently socially infertile” and should therefore be able to access funding'

I mean FGS.

And also note when they say same sex couples throughout, they really mean gay men.

Single parents are 'socially infertile'?

If they're single parents then... They have at least one child already?!

And again they mean men don't they.

nice

My life experiences have brought me into contact with them.

You are really wrong and misinformed to suggest that a small minority of surrogates are ok. I think you also don't realise that it's very different from country to country so you can't really make comments like that.

To hold your view you have to disagree with the majority of women who actually have the life experience you're taking a position on. I don't have much time for that, especially as those i know are anything but vulnerable.

@Syeknom good for you!!! Maybe we mothers need to talk more about the perineum tears, the high blood pressure, the upper stomach muscles not ever reconnecting, exhaustion, etc. and those are minor complications.

@Defmy have you been pregnant and birthed children? Or are you considering being a surrogate?

Nigeria

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/law/2011/jun/02/nigeria-baby-farm-raided-human-trafficking

Ukraine

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/15/the-stranded-babies-of-kyiv-and-the-women-who-give-birth-for-money

India

time.com/3838319/israel-nepal-surrogates/#:~:text=The%20infants'%20arrival%20completed%20the,Saturday%20killed%20more%20than%204%2C000.&text=Only%20heterosexual%20couples%20can%20easily,to%20bear%20children%20with%20surrogates.

Why do you assume that I don't know anything about this?

is that you Lisa Lumdeelums? Kim Cotton? Natalie Gamble?

Or maybe Dr Kirsty Horsey has come to tell us about her life experience and her research studies from Kent University...how many surrogate mothers were there in that study?

That fear of link after birth that you speak of, when there is no longer a link, how many babies born by surrogacy have a fear of having a link to their mothers?

In USA I believe the contracts have been tightened up so that the 'commissioning parents' can essentially order an abortion no questions asked- others may have more info.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/463323/

Russia

www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/08/03/8-arrested-in-russias-first-surrogacy-probe-a71049

China

Thailand

www.thestar.com.my/aseanplus/aseanplus-news/2020/05/27/four-medics-questioned-in-wombs-for-hire-case-in-thailand

"Despite the lack of surrogates, in some cases, willing women are being turned away.
One woman’s weight saw her ruled out. For another, it was her age. Hannah* was matched with an intending parent through a clinic, which led to a full medical assessment from a fertility specialist.
Because she is 46, Hannah was referred to an obstetrician, who gave her the all-clear. But after months of preparation, counselling and meetings, Ecart declined her application.
“It has been an emotional rollercoaster for both of us,” she says.
Hannah and her intending parent are considering carrying out the surrogacy in Hawaii. But after a couple of complaints and some terse words, they’ve been allowed to resubmit to the committee, giving them hope Hannah can carry a baby in New Zealand."

So women who are willing to be surrogate mothers should be allowed to irrespective of health issues? Incredible, medical advice against going through this at age 46 but still hell bent on finding a way.

What I can't fathom is all this puts the baby they claim to want so badly at risk too. A woman of 46 is extremely likely to suffer from hypertension or pre-eclampsia and may need an early delivery, meaning a premature baby (which may also be small for gestational age due to the raised BP) and all the risks involved. And that's just for starters. Likewise the risks associated with raised BMI including gestational diabetes and these things affect the fetus and its health in childhood through to adulthood. But they are cross that she should have been turned down. 

others may have more info...

Susan A Ring in Unexpected Mother explains how in the second surrogacy for the same couple as the sin she gave them, she was asked to abort all three babies she was carrying as the couple changed their minds. They were divorcing. 'Foetal reduction' resulted in her burying the dead triplet in her garden after she expelled it at home, after delivering the twins who were adopted, since their commissions parents refused to answer her calls and cut her off financially.

More recently Barrie Drewitt Barlow and his fiancé Scott (not sure that's allowed as Barrie is still married to Tony...anyway) had two of the triplets receive a fatal injection in the heart in vitro and they only wanted one. If that was the case they maybe should have considered how many embryos they put in the mother, much like the above. Though he doesn't go into detail is was well documented in Closer magazine that he was expecting triplets but only had Baby Valentina as he had enough boys in the family already (I paraphrase...Saffron is no longer the only girl).

You can hear more about how many embryos you can put in an Indian woman here.

Women having babies at 46 are not viewed kindly by society.

Unless they are doing it for someone else it seems...

@Delphinium20

She just hasn't a clue (as I didn't before I actually had children) about what it involves and how visceral it is. How much it changes your body, how risky it can be, how they are literally a part of you.

I made this point on an earlier thread-once you go through pregnancy and birth, you have a completely new appreciation for what it is. These kind of articles freak me out...I would strongly urge any woman to stay the hell away from offering themselves like this.

I think this is true, but that also even having been through pregnancy doesn't mean you fully know what you'll get next time. My first pregnancy was very physically easy; my second, just two years later, wasn't (while still not being anything out of the ordinary, lots of women have far worse). If I'd signed up to be a surrogate on the basis of my first I wouldn't have realised the 'deal' I was making at all, and I'm just talking about inconvenience and discomfort but for some women it'll be life changing conditions and injuries and even death - and many of those risks are much more likely when a woman has had a unusually high number of pregnancies, which surrogacy tends to encourage and thrive on. I'm not sure it can ever be a fully informed consent.

Correct NiceGerbil, the U.S. has some people, notably NY Governor Cuomo (yes, the same gov. who's currently been accused of numerous sexual harassment incidents) who pushed to loosen regulations.

www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-announces-gestational-surrogacy-now-legal-new-york-state

Feminists were against this, but I swear no one listens to women. www.stopsurrogacynow.com/gloria-steinem-calls-upon-new-york-gov-cuomo-to-not-legalize-commercial-surrogacy/

[quote Dangertime]www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/parenting/pregnancy/conception/300237663/where-new-zealands-surrogacy-laws-could-be-headed[/quote]
And this is New Zealand, supposedly one of the most humane and progressive countries in the world despite the huge issues it has with DV. I despair.

No, I'm not any of those people. I do know who they are and some are far too kind for the tone of the 'debate' here. Bad form to guess the identities of posters on an anonymous forum. It's clear you've reduced to a situation where all's fair in war. That undermines you and says a great deal about you.

Be Kind

When I see ads for surrogacy and egg donation marketing teenage girls and college young women, I could care less about how kind I am perceived.

I prefer to be seen as fierce - as a mother, I've quite learned that being nice and kind towards self-interested parties doesn't protect the vulnerable and I could care less about the feelings of those who would manipulate young and vulnerable women.

Excellent point Hardbackwriter subsequent pregnancies can be quite different.

More recently Barrie Drewitt Barlow and his fiancé Scott (not sure that's allowed as Barrie is still married to Tony...anyway) had two of the triplets receive a fatal injection in the heart in vitro and they only wanted one.

Jesus, that's appalling. That should only ever be allowed at the sole instigation of the surrogate mother.

To hold your view you have to disagree with the majority of women who actually have the life experience you're taking a position on. I don't have much time for that, especially as those i know are anything but vulnerable.

That's a remarkably comprehensive survey or post-surrogacy data collection and analysis that you must be referencing and, from your description of its definitive nature and reliability, it must involve many countries.

I would be interested in the reference especially as it's usually quite difficult to collect quantitative and qualitative data on women who are vulnerable, never mind those who are engaged in actions that might be legal but are culturally taboo, especially those in LMIC.

Surrogacy should not happen full stop.
It is a disgusting quest for the ideal.
But it won't ..
Plenty of homeless dogs in the world but people still buy from puppy mills.

This is sad actually because I have realized baby’s are seen more as commodities and could be made via surrogacy just to abuse or foe sexual gratification, and none would be wiser and the surrogate unable to step in and claim the baby. Yuck. Imagine the poor babies possibly to be made purely for that and they have no choice. Sorry to go out on a limb there but anything is possible when we take that posture.

Why do you describe it as war Defmy? Because of all these people fighting for their rights to buy other women's bodies?

I agree with the other poster who said no woman can even know what she is signing up for, even if she already has a child because every pregnancy is so different. Might have gone fine last time, this time she might end up with high blood pressure, a forth degree tear, nerve damage and incontinence, or disabled and unable to work to support her own children or just dead.

@habibihabibi

Surrogacy should not happen full stop. It is a disgusting quest for the ideal. But it won't .. Plenty of homeless dogs in the world but people still buy from puppy mills.

Talking of puppies, in the UK we recognise that the first 10 weeks of a puppy's life should be spent with its mother. Are there similar safeguards for babies born to surrogates? No. In fact the ideal seems to be snatching the baby away from the only mother it instinctively knows immediately after birth.

We also recognise that a bitch should have a maximum of 4 litters spaced at least a year apart. Again, is there any regulation or safeguards on surrogate mothers? No, there are women who IVF clinics have been happy to impregnate 7 times, sometimes within a year, knowing the massively increased risk of damage to the health of both the mother and foetus.

And despite all this lack of regulation, we have people pushing for laws that will not only NOT address these issues, they will enable a surrogacy equivalent of puppy farms where women have no rights over their pregnancies or babies.