MoJ Judicial Review disclosures?

Highwind · 2021-03-13T20:04:52+00:00

Wasn’t the MoJ supposed to have submitted it’s data on how many biological males they have put in women’s prison by the 12th of this month? I was wondering if they have, and if they have... whether the figures will ever be made public? So from my hazy remembrance of the live tweeting, the Judge should now have all the data to start actually working out his Judgment, is that correct? Forgive me if there is already a thread (I could only see the already full one).

yourhairiswinterfire · 13/03/2021 20:38

Yes, judge wanted the details by the 12th. Here were the tweets:

Judges: want agreed note on 2 topics meaning & ambit of Section 7 and question of whether allocation is a service.
Re stats: need answers for 6 questions

1. how many trans prisoners in estate as whole
2. how many of these have GRC
3. how many trans prisoners are on E wing or in any comparable section/unit
4. how many in general population
5. of number 4 how many have GRC
6. how many TW with GRC are in male estate
7. how many biological women are in male estate

Any rule, instruction or guidance as to circs as to which a biological woman could or would be allocated or transferred to the male estate?
It is not credible that there is no guidance of this.

By 12th March please!

I'm not sure if they'll be made public, they may be referenced in the judgement?

It'll be interesting to see the stats the MoJ come up with, because they were quite adamant they had no way of knowing.

nauticant · 13/03/2021 21:35

I don't expect this information to be made public until the decision is published. (Perhaps then only a subset of the information.)

What I'm hoping for is that the information is provided to the claimant (FDJ) at the same time as it's provided to the judges so FDJ is able to comment before the information is used by the judges in making their decision.

Original poster

Highwind · 13/03/2021 22:03

Thank you!

I wonder what will happen if they can’t actually provide a factual answer?

Surely it will help the case against them.

OP posts:

nauticant · 13/03/2021 22:16

I think they'll cobble together something, whatever it might be. You just do not decline to provide information to respond to a judge's request when apparently it forms part of the reason you're arguing your case in court.

PurpleHoodie · 13/03/2021 22:32

It will be.....interesting to see their response.

Original poster

Highwind · 13/03/2021 22:38

If they are able to provide an answer to the Judge, I wonder if that means they will now have a ready-made answer to provide if someone did a FOI request along the same rhetoric.

OP posts:

Manderleyagain · 13/03/2021 23:11

What I'm hoping for is that the information is provided to the claimant (FDJ) at the same time as it's provided to the judges so FDJ is able to comment before the information is used by the judges in making their decision.
Yes would make sense to let the complainant's legal team comment (I guess then the defence would be able to respond to that) before final judgement. I really hope there is some info in the judgement.

aliasundercover · 13/03/2021 23:17

1. how many trans prisoners in estate as whole
2. how many of these have GRC
3. how many trans prisoners are on E wing or in any comparable section/unit
4. how many in general population
5. of number 4 how many have GRC
6. how many TW with GRC are in male estate
7. how many biological women are in male estate

It still seems unbelievable to me that nobody had this information when the judge asked for it.

Thelnebriati · 16/03/2021 17:16

Quick bump.

Original poster

Highwind · 16/03/2021 19:42

Can anyone submit a FOI request? Or do you have to be an “interested party” or something?

I definitely want to know the answers that the MOJ provided to the Judge, so if the judgment makes no mention of the answers and I did a FOI request, surely they couldn’t avoid answering due to lack of data, because they will now have the numbers in hand?

OP posts:

highame · 17/03/2021 08:29

I don't think they'll be able to cobble together a few figures. If they don't have the information, then they'll have to say they don't have it which will look pretty damned stupid. It would be saying that 'feeling' something trumps knowledge and useful information. The trouble with ideology is that facts are secondary

ErrolTheDragon · 17/03/2021 09:11

@highame

I don't think they'll be able to cobble together a few figures. If they don't have the information, then they'll have to say they don't have it which will look pretty damned stupid. It would be saying that 'feeling' something trumps knowledge and useful information. The trouble with ideology is that facts are secondary

Especially stupid in the light of the ONS decision.

Manderleyagain · 28/06/2021 12:55

Is there any news on when the judgement is due for this case? It's the judicial review of prison policy, brought be a female prisoner who says she was sexually assaulted by a sex offender who had been transferred to the women's prison.

The main thread is full or would have posted there.

It's nearly 4 months since it was heard. What's normal for a judicial review judgement? I assume I haven't missed it.

RoyalCorgi · 28/06/2021 13:30

I just had a look at the Keep Prisons Single Sex website to see if there was any news of when the judgement might be expected, but there isn't:

www.keep-prisons-single-sex.org.uk/judicial-review-campaign-update

Some judicial reviews seem to take just a few weeks. This one has already been more than three months.

FlyPassed · 28/06/2021 14:22

I bet they don't capture the data and are having to get it fresh from the source

RedDogsBeg · 28/06/2021 14:31

I find the length of time this is taking disgraceful.

highame · 28/06/2021 14:37

The cases that have been taken to JR are complex and are highlighting how the EA and the GRA are colliding. I would think the Judges have their work cut out because whatever their judgement is, it has societal impact

MrsOvertonsWindow · 28/06/2021 18:11

On a related matter - have we had the normal yearly crime statistics - the ones that break down crime into categories and look at things like age differences and that very old fashioned concept of sex differences? ?
Fair Play for Women are very good at analysing them.

ArabellaScott · 28/06/2021 18:51

Who would one ask about this? Ask for a predicted date for the decision, I mean?

JoanOgden · 28/06/2021 18:54

I think it is normal not to announce the judgment date in advance. So we probably have to just keep waiting!

PearPickingPorky · 28/06/2021 20:19

Surely FPFE know what is happening with the data request, because it would need to have been shared with opposing counsel?

I hope the MOJ aren't moving all the males back to the male estate so they can say "nope, none in the female estate your honour, nothing to see here. Let's call it a day and go home".

ArabellaScott · 28/06/2021 20:54

Thanks, Joan.

If the MoJ don't even record sex then I don't see how they can do this, Pear.

Manderleyagain · 28/06/2021 21:16

Were either fpfw or keep prisons single sex involved officially? I know fpfw evidence was used but the complainant had legal aid (I think) so there wasn't a fundraising campaign. Were either of them an official intervenor? It might be that no one will know until it drops.

yourhairiswinterfire · 28/06/2021 21:34

Were either fpfw or keep prisons single sex involved officially?

I don't think so. Reading the original thread it says KPSS were 'hoping to be allowed in to the Court, otherwise they'd have to tune in remotely'. And FPFW provided witness statements.

It might be that no one will know until it drops.

Think you might be right. The original thread also shows that we didn't know the JR was happening until the morning it was in court.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4180758-MOJ-Prison-Policy-JR-TODAY

It's a frustrating wait, though.

yourhairiswinterfire · 28/06/2021 21:37

*Sorry, of course we knew it was happening, I meant we didn't know the date beforehand.