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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Bristol Uni SU forbids women discussing male violence without male guardians present

82 replies

severnboring · 13/03/2021 20:04

FFS. Bristol Uni SU is disciplining Raquel Rosario Sanchez, who's been targeted by transactivist bullies there for years, because she ran female-only meetings.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/03/13/university-feminist-society-disciplined-excluding-trans-women/

"Women Talk Back hosted women-only meetings at Bristol University to discuss male violence against females, and argued the presence of men could make attendees fearful to speak out.

The students refused entry to male-born transgender people who self-identify as women, classed as men under equality laws unless they have changed their legal sex.

Now Bristol Students’ Union has ordered the society’s president, Raquel Rosario-Sanchez, to stand down and banned her from union leadership posts for two years.

And committee members must complete an “equality, diversity and inclusion” course."

"The society was told that Bristol SU defines women as "all who self-define as women, including (if they wish) those with complex gender identities that include ‘woman’, and those who experience oppression as women"."

OP posts:
PumpkinSpiceWoman · 14/03/2021 10:32

So, you made up the part about male guardians being present. Why lie?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/03/2021 11:57

She said women aren't allowed to talk about male violence without males being present. The word "guardian" was a metaphor.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/03/2021 11:58

The students refused entry to male-born transgender people who self-identify as women, classed as men under equality laws unless they have changed their legal sex.

Porridgeoat · 14/03/2021 12:05

Bristol SU are breaking the law I’m sure and their argument wouldn’t stand up due to self ID not being a protected characteristic. Racquel accepts people who have undergone formal gender reassignment and that is in line with the law. I would support a legal challenge from Racquel to Bristol SU.

Porridgeoat · 14/03/2021 12:22

Raquel has a crowd funding page. Presently it has about six hundred pounds but she needs about 20k to challenge Bristol uni

Original poster
severnboring · 14/03/2021 12:23

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The students refused entry to male-born transgender people who self-identify as women, classed as men under equality laws unless they have changed their legal sex.
The journo is correct, but he doesn't mention that even if someone has a GRC that says their legal sex is female, it's still perfectly legal to exclude them from a female-only group or meeting as a 'proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim' Porridge. It's just that the grounds of the discrimination would be gender reassigment rather than sex. Maya Forstater's work is so clear on this more broadly - she points out that discrimation is not bad per se and is in fact a run-of-the-mill thing eg 'children under 8 can't go on this ride'. It's illegal discrimination that is bad - and illegal for good reason - eg 'This cafe doesn't serve French people'.
OP posts:
NecessaryScene1 · 14/03/2021 12:26

Racquel accepts people who have undergone formal gender reassignment and that is in line with the law.

She's not even required to do that, as far as I know - female-only meetings are permitted, and GRCs don't override that.

And did/would she actuallly permit anyone with a GRC? I hope not. The wording of the article is unclear:

The students refused entry to male-born transgender people who self-identify as women, classed as men under equality laws unless they have changed their legal sex.

I read the "unless" as correctly qualifying "classed as men under equality laws", not necessarily "refused entry".

Original poster
severnboring · 14/03/2021 12:56

Women Talk Back have issued a statement:

www.womentalkback.org/post/women-talk-back-statement-on-the-bristol-su

"The President of our student society reiterated that it is legal to hold women-only meetings in order to benefit women. They refused to accept that and this instigated a 45-minute standoff between our President and the student trans activists, in which she had to continuously repeat the aforementioned point. As retaliation for establishing and maintaining our boundaries, they reported us to the Bristol SU claiming that women saying “no” constituted “extremely harmful psychological injury.”"

The person on the table here is the student claiming to be extremely psychologically injured but not being allowed to take part in a female-only group:

www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/protesters-filmed-interrupting-talk-transgender-2247064

There is even a TWAW-type feminist group at the uni - but of course that's not good enough. Reminds me of Hampstead ponds.

OP posts:
TheFnozwhowasmirage · 14/03/2021 13:05

My dsughter has had an offer from Bristol University. Only yesterday they emailed me about their pastoral care. I'm sitting in my hands,I'd love to tell them exactly what I think of their unlawful bullying,but daren't at the minute.

I've mentioned to Dd that she might want to do some research on Bristol,as they have previous form for not safeguarding students, especially female students,and it isn't her top choice. I really hope that she doesn't end up going there.

FindTheTruth · 14/03/2021 14:31

Thank you for the thread OP and what a fantastic statement. for that alone, I'm gardening Daffodil

FindTheTruth · 14/03/2021 14:34

The person on the table here is the student claiming to be extremely psychologically injured by not being allowed to take part in a female-only group

It's extraordinary. The person on the table has hundreds of groups to join and simply wants to stop women meeting to discuss issues relating to experiences of being female

NecessaryScene1 · 14/03/2021 14:42

The person on the table here is the student claiming to be extremely psychologically injured but not being allowed to take part in a female-only group:

If this guy has been at it for years, I'm wondering if it might have reached the point this is beyond Student Union politics, and it's time to get the police involved to stop the harrassment.

MrsAudreyShapiro · 14/03/2021 14:54

@TheFnozwhowasmirage

My dsughter has had an offer from Bristol University. Only yesterday they emailed me about their pastoral care. I'm sitting in my hands,I'd love to tell them exactly what I think of their unlawful bullying,but daren't at the minute.

I've mentioned to Dd that she might want to do some research on Bristol,as they have previous form for not safeguarding students, especially female students,and it isn't her top choice. I really hope that she doesn't end up going there.

My dd had an offer from Bristol and I'm so glad she didn't end up there. Both because of what happened to Raquel and also their failure to protect Jewish students from antisemitism. Pastoral care, indeed Hmm
SpaceBatAngelDragon · 14/03/2021 15:28

Black and brown women being told by white males that they "....must complete an “equality, diversity and inclusion” course."

How the fuck do they do this with a straight face?

And why is the liberal left allowing them to harass women of colour like this? I mean, clearly they think white women inherently are over-privileged ( Hmm ), but what is the privilege of immigrant women of colour over transwomen?

Manderleyagain · 14/03/2021 16:10

Here is an archived version of the telegraph article for those who cant access.
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20210314155152/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/03/13/university-feminist-society-disciplined-excluding-trans-women/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20210314155152/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/03/13/university-feminist-society-disciplined-excluding-trans-women/

MaudTheInvincible · 14/03/2021 16:22

Thanks for the archive link. I enjoyed listening to Raquel interviewing Imogen from the Cambridge Radical Feminist Network this morning. Seems to me like these captured, authoritarian Student Unions are discovering that women just will not stop talking. I hope Raquel and the Bristol group take this further. She sounds like a very determined woman, I was immensely cheered by listening to her speak.

https://filia.org.uk/latest-news/2021/1/3/cambridge-radical-feminist-network-centring-womens-rights-in-academia

NecessaryScene1 · 14/03/2021 16:31

Because it is failing to allow (actually obstructing) the kinds of provisions which are allowed in the EA which recognises that ppl need to form groups around the protected characteristics, in order to flourish in a world which does discriminate on those grounds.

I think this makes clear we need some sort of clarification or tightening of the law. The Equality Act does ban discrimination, and then lists places discrimination is permitted - sports, special interest groups, safety...

Now, when it was written, it would never have occurred to anyone that there would be people objecting to special interest groups, feeling they had the power to block special interest groups, or even refusing to create them.

So there's nothing expressly in the law protecting the right to form them. They never needed protection, until recently.

ECHR article 11 possibly applies: Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

But if you're associated with the SU, there can conceivably be limits placed by the SU on what they want their suborganisations to do.

But on the other hand, isn't the SU supposed to represent all students in the public university? Is it getting public funding? In which case it's quasi-governmental, and should be subject to similar limits on how much it can restrict freedom.

Anyway, I've dug. It's up to 1150 already.

Original poster
severnboring · 14/03/2021 16:51

@NecessaryScene1

Because it is failing to allow (actually obstructing) the kinds of provisions which are allowed in the EA which recognises that ppl need to form groups around the protected characteristics, in order to flourish in a world which does discriminate on those grounds.

I think this makes clear we need some sort of clarification or tightening of the law. The Equality Act does ban discrimination, and then lists places discrimination is permitted - sports, special interest groups, safety...

Now, when it was written, it would never have occurred to anyone that there would be people objecting to special interest groups, feeling they had the power to block special interest groups, or even refusing to create them.

So there's nothing expressly in the law protecting the right to form them. They never needed protection, until recently.

ECHR article 11 possibly applies: Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

But if you're associated with the SU, there can conceivably be limits placed by the SU on what they want their suborganisations to do.

But on the other hand, isn't the SU supposed to represent all students in the public university? Is it getting public funding? In which case it's quasi-governmental, and should be subject to similar limits on how much it can restrict freedom.

Anyway, I've dug. It's up to 1150 already.

I think you're spot on Necessary.

I understand why it's currently necessary for women to argue it, but I don't like the fact that the bar to clear in order to be permitted a women-only group is 'we might talk about rape'. The bar should simply be 'because we want to'. Parallel to the toilets and changing rooms issue.

OP posts:
Original poster
severnboring · 14/03/2021 16:56

@NecessaryScene1

The person on the table here is the student claiming to be extremely psychologically injured but not being allowed to take part in a female-only group:

If this guy has been at it for years, I'm wondering if it might have reached the point this is beyond Student Union politics, and it's time to get the police involved to stop the harrassment.

Yes I expect Avon and Somerset's finest will be along with a police horse - oh no that's for when women hand out leaflets.

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1048622497254572033

Given that [women who want female only spaces and are commonly referred to using an acronymic slur]s are so terrifying and responsible for so much literal violence, I'm not sure why this student wants in Hmm

OP posts:
FindTheTruth · 14/03/2021 17:12

looking at this person on the desk shouting over the women, brings Sall Grovers open letter to mind

Helleofabore · 14/03/2021 17:53

Digging.

Scientistranswidow · 14/03/2021 18:35

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Scientistranswidow · 14/03/2021 18:36

Please MNHQ: this is a message of support for RRS ?! Please take me off your "black list"??

Original poster
severnboring · 15/03/2021 09:54

I see that Raquel finds gardening a good way to relax after standing up to bullies... just off to help her with some digging

OP posts:
PurpleHoodie · 15/03/2021 10:07

A trip to the gardening centre for some seeds is always a relaxing endeavour Flowers