Ensuring the momentum continues and things change

[Changemusthappen]

Does everyone agree that one of the key questions to come out of the current debate around the safety of women, sexual harassment etc is what happens next and what can be done in the short and long term to tackle this.

Short term - can be put in place/motion immediately:

• continued and increased awareness of the harassment and threats that women and girls receive on a daily basis. There have been many phone ins on the radio this week and newspaper articles, these need to continue/be revisited regularly
• immediate zero tolerance in schools regarding sexual harassment of girls and inclusion of this in PSHE (it may be already). Additionally the emphasis that it is 'everyone's responsibility' to call out this behaviour.
• more police presence on the streets, trains, tubes
• Immediate government action to stop self id and repeal/reform the GRA
• Protection of all women's single sex spaces including toilets, prisons, sport etc
• detailed logging and followup of every report to the police of harassment, sexual assault, threatening behaviour
• increased cctv on tubes and trains

Long term

• a complete review within the police force regarding how sexual abuse/harrasment, threats etc are logged and dealt with
• Better planning around facilities, street lighting etc to improve safety

Obviously this is just a starter but I am interested in other's views. I am planning to write to my MP about this, it is important it is kept in the public eye.

Surely Robin you are not going to pretend that transwomen' s patterns of criminality reflect those of women?

Hush now, they don't like us to talk about facts.

Surely Robin you are not going to pretend that transwomen' s patterns of criminality reflect those of women?

If Robin were foolish enough to do that, I believe we could take them to the cleaners by placing bets about whether the next "woman" to be reported in a given publication for various offenses was "trans" or not.

We'd find out what Robin really believes by what odds Robin would be prepared to offer us - and we'd find out what Mumsnet believes by what users would accept.

Betting markets can be very good at getting close to the truth.

My current gut feeling is that for offenses like possession of child porn there's over a 50% chance of a "woman" being "trans". So I'd currently take evens on that.

I wonder what evidence pp has to support the idea that transwomen offend at a different rate to men? (The prison figures would seem to suggest a higher rate of offending but I don’t think that is what pp meant)

Supposing some evidence did exist of an overall lower offending rate, at what point in a transwomen’s transition might the drop in likelihood of offending take place?

This one is quite recent. First convicted in 2012 with 12 offences for possessing the worst type of CSA images. During a routine check as part of sentence for above crimes, the former teacher was found with more CSA images of the worst type and convicted for a second time in late 2020.

At some point in the intervening years this person began identifying as a woman. I guess a good demonstration of the complete lack of effect that transition had on likelihood of offending?

Karen Jones committed a brutal attempted rape (there were problems maintaining an erection) BECAUSE they wanted to transition and be sent back to prison (after serving a sentence for manslaughter - a former boyfriend apparently wouldn’t fund surgery) to get free surgery (Karen’s own admission available in reporting about this case).

The judge gave Ward/Hannay, 55, a three-year community order rather than a custodial sentence citing the fact that a programme of treatment for sexual offending was only available outside prison. He also warned that any breach of the terms of the order or re-offending would result in a jail sentence.

As an aside, the judges comments seem odd He gave a community order rather than a prison sentence to a repeat sex offender because the treatment programme for sex offenders was only available outside prison

Eh??

@334bu

*Pleeeease. Lets stop the ridiculous misquoting of the Karolinska study. Its worse than 'the Lisbon Treaty' and Brexit*

Don't need to quote above research when MOJ statistics of convicted transwomen offenders are there for all to see. Surely Robin you are not going to pretend that transwomen' s patterns of criminality reflect those of women? What were the statistics again .... 72 transwomen sex offenders against 124 women sex offenders. 72 out of perhaps 540,000 ( if transwomen 2% if male population) against 124 out of 27,000000. Sure they're just the same.

And given that most sexual offences are carried out by men in homes where they are known, your solution would be to ban all men from homes in which they are known? Sigh?

And given that most sexual offences are carried out by men in homes where they are known, your solution would be to ban all men from homes in which they are known? Sigh?

These are the ones that are recorded. And many go unreported. On the occasions it has happened to me, it has been outside the home, by a stranger, and the majority unreported. I am not alone in this. If you actually wanted to build some sort of bridge here it would be helpful if you actually started listening to women, rather than dismissing their concerns.

Ok Robin what evidence do you have that people born male who identify as women don't share male patterns of criminality just like any other members of the male sex? Also, in the event that you have such evidence, what evidence do you then have that their patterns of criminality mirror female patterns of criminality?

If you actually wanted to build some sort of bridge here it would be helpful if you actually started listening to women, rather than dismissing their concerns.

Quite.

I would be tempted to lay money on the fact that Robin won't be answering that question 334bu. Robin doesn't have any evidence. Because there isn't any.

My teen DCs have been discussing it with friends. DS (16) has called out a couple of male friends on their behaviour and the girls have been listing incidences of harassment and sexist behaviour publicly, so that their peers can see what’s really going on behind closed doors. They’re done with keeping it to themselves thinking nobody cares.

I do think that this generation will eventually get it. They are just more socially aware in general.

I’ve talked about zero tolerance with them (and cited an example on here today of me challenging a sexist remark, which may previously have gone unchallenged).

It’s on all of us to make sure this doesn’t die down and that every incident is challenged and reported where appropriate.

And given that most sexual offences are carried out by men in homes where they are known, your solution would be to ban all men from homes in which they are known? Sigh?

Funnily enough Robin, the numbers of violent and sexual offences against women are such that there are still quite a few that take place outside the home.

Since we have a complete lack of evidence showing any difference in offending between transwomen and men (and no agreed threshold that is considered 'transition') we have to treat all male people the same and exclude them.

If you think that is not the most sensible move to try and avoid undermining safety for women, please explain further and describe what would be more effective.

And given that most sexual offences are carried out by men in homes where they are known, your solution would be to ban all men from homes in which they are known? Sigh?

This is just unbelievable.

Women are entitled to no boundaries or protections outside the home, because more sexual offences are carried out by men in the home than outside.

Un-fucking-believable.

please explain further and describe what would be more effective

I suspect the preferred and most effective solution would be for women to shut up and just be nice...

I feel there is a bit of statistical misinterpretation going on here.

Men are not made dangerous by being "known". Dangerous men attack women when they have the opportunity to do so, and inside the home there is more opportunity. Men attack more women inside the home than outside the home, because there are no barriers to stop them inside the home. No risk of passers-by or security guards intervening and completely shared space.

If we reduce the safeguarding rules we have in public spaces, these same dangerous men will seize the opportunities there also, and the number of attacks on women that men commit outside the home will increase.

I am trying to remember the last time there was a media report of a woman walking on a street in this country being physically assaulted, dragged off the street into a park or garden, raped and murdered by a woman.

I can't think of any at all, so it rather looks as if it must always have been done by natal men.

Trying to derail that seems to me to be very obviously an agenda of some kind, though why anyone other than a rapist/murderer would have such an agenda baffles me.

@334bu

Ok Robin what evidence do you have that people born male who identify as women don't share male patterns of criminality just like any other members of the male sex? Also, in the event that you have such evidence, what evidence do you then have that their patterns of criminality mirror female patterns of criminality?

I am very keen for this answer as well. Surely Robin has access to this information. This would settle this issue for once and for all, wouldn’t it?

It could be posted to refute the sites breaking down the statistics of transwomen in prison. It would make people feel much better about safety of women in prisons.

Yes. I look forward to the evidence that must be out there.

If you think that is not the most sensible move to try and avoid undermining safety for women, please explain further and describe what would be more effective.

I also look forward to this too.

@PotholeHellhole

I feel there is a bit of statistical misinterpretation going on here.

Men are not made dangerous by being "known". Dangerous men attack women when they have the opportunity to do so, and inside the home there is more opportunity. Men attack more women inside the home than outside the home, because there are no barriers to stop them inside the home. No risk of passers-by or security guards intervening and completely shared space.

If we reduce the safeguarding rules we have in public spaces, these same dangerous men will seize the opportunities there also, and the number of attacks on women that men commit outside the home will increase.

Exactly.

It's not some separate cohort, some extra criminal subset. It's the same men.

Engaging in street harassment, leching at women on the tube, 'accidentally' touching them, following them in nightclubs, harassing them at work, displaying controlling behaviour.

As soon as safeguards are removed and risk is diminished, they will take the opportunity.

"And given that most sexual offences are carried out by men in homes where they are known, your solution would be to ban all men from homes in which they are known?"
Some of us are acutely aware of this fact.
It doesn't make me feel safer on a dark street.
Most men are in fact banned from my home where my child lives, I will not have a man living with me until my son leaves home, if ever.
Im more worried about male ego, rivalry, control, physical violence rather than sexual where my boy is concerned.
Its not worth the risk.
Ive been a single mother since my son was a baby, I've always known the most dangerous thing I could do is move a man in.
I recently had a bad sexual experience with a man I had known for years and trusted, luckily it didn't happen at home but he's been to my home and it will make me wary next time I ever want to get involved with a man.
I'd like to feel safe and know my son is safe.
The most obvious way of achieving that aim in my own home is by keeping men out.
Its sad really.

I am very keen for this answer as well. Surely Robin has access to this information. This would settle this issue for once and for all, wouldn’t it?

It could be posted to refute the sites breaking down the statistics of transwomen in prison. It would make people feel much better about safety of women in prisons.

Yes. I look forward to the evidence that must be out there.

it would seem to be the solution of a lot of stress out here. Here we are all worrying massively about all this but it would be great to see some evidence that we are wrong.

I could return to my knitting and looking at kittens.

As soon as safeguards are removed and risk is diminished, they will take the opportunity.

And this should also be borne in mind when comparing crime victim stats for men and women. Men do suffer more male violence statistically.

But that will be in part because of safeguarding of females, including things like single-sex spaces.

Remove the safeguarding and I would expect those stats to be reversed.

NecessaryScene1
Men do suffer more male violence statistically. But that will be in part because of safeguarding of females, including things like single-sex spaces.

That and men, particularly young men, starting fights which are then finished by other men.