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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What would you respond with?

18 replies

Outbutnotoutout · 13/03/2021 13:45

If anything of course....

Having a debate about women feeling unsafe and getting lots of "but what about the men" comments, "more men are killed" I agree but uts mostly men doing the killing.

I said misogyny should be a crime and a man responded with "Misandry should be a crime as well"

Do you agree?
How do I respond?

(For some reason I don't have voting)

OP posts:
GNCQ · 13/03/2021 13:48

Sure. Maybe let Feminists get on with campaigning to make misogyny a hate crime, and we won't stop men's rights activists campaigning for misandry.

GNCQ · 13/03/2021 13:51

This post came up on my Facebook feed, written by a man. I thought it was quite a good response.

_

I've seen a lot of men doing the "not all men" routine over the last few days, and I think it's interesting to think about the cognitive state that these men are getting themselves into that makes them resort to stinking up important conversations with their "not all men" mind-farts.

As far as I figure it they're getting horribly confused about identity.

As I've tried to show in the infographic, this seems to be their thought process:

P1. People are criticising male violence
P2. I am a male
C. Therefore this means I am personally under attack and must adopt a defensive position

When it's put into a logical structure like this, the problem becomes glaringly obvious: The terms "male violence" and "individual males" in the two premises are clearly different things can't be used interchangeably to draw conclusions.

It's particularly easy to spot if someone has colour coded the relevant bits.😉

Although it's not exactly the same kind of composition error, it's in the same family of logical fallacies as this:

P1. All dogs are mammals
P2. No cats are dogs
C. No cats are mammals

Generation after generation of kids just haven't been taught any fundamental philosophical basics or critical thinking skills in schools, and let's be honest, it's only a particularly nerdy/bookish type of person who, in later life, and of their own accord, becomes interested in understanding all the different logical fallacies that can be made.

Then there's the emotional component of identity-defensiveness, which seems to reduce people to hyper-defensive, unreasonable and unlistening state when they feel their identity is under attack, and this emotional hot-headedness can kick in whether the feeling of being under attack is based on something real (systemic racism, interpersonal bigotry, sexism, classism, homophobia, discrimination against the physically disabled and the neuro-divergent ...) or when it's based on the kind of absurdly simple composition error that you could easily teach primary school kids to identify and avoid.

Hot-headed identity-defensiveness is problematic whether the thing that triggered it was real or imagined, because it represents a loss of emotional control, which limits anybody's higher cognitive functions.

Of course it's human nature to become enraged by injustice, however the key to properly confronting it has always been calm analytical rage, not spouting hot-headed nonsense when you're most emotionally riled up.

Emotional control techniques is something else it would be extremely easy to teach to children of primary school age, and even younger.

So huge numbers of people are getting themselves absolutely wound up, and derailing debates about important issues, and lowering the standard of discourse, and making absolute fools of themselves, because they've never been taught how to actually think, and never took it upon themselves to learn, and because they're so lacking in emotional self-control that they hammer confused, hot-headed, identity-defensive whines into their touchscreens, without even really thinking about what they're doing.

It's utterly dispiriting to behold.

What would you respond with?
notyourhandmaid · 13/03/2021 14:10

Asking 'how many women murdered men in the last ten years?' is a good starting point.

But people arguing this almost never do so in good faith. He doesn't mean 'systematic attacks on men', he means 'sometimes women generalise about male behaviour and this feels unfair to meeeeeee'.

Outbutnotoutout · 13/03/2021 16:37

It's a losing argument isn't it 🙄

At this moment in time, I hate being a woman

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 13/03/2021 16:50

Voting is only on the AIBU board.

If you can, maybe best to say, let's not get into 'whataboutery'. Start a separate discussion about men killing men if you want, but please have the basic courtesy and respect to murdered women to keep this discussion to violence against women.

Outbutnotoutout · 13/03/2021 22:00

It turned nasty, they turned on me so I blocked them.

Asshats

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ErrolTheDragon · 13/03/2021 22:21

Astonishing isn't it? Almost as if some people don't really give a shit about the pervasive harassment and violence against women. Almost as if they'd rather be a part of that opposition to women being truly free than oppose it.

thistimelastweek · 13/03/2021 22:30

Misandry should be a crime when men have a knee-jerk fear of a woman walking towards them in the street at night.
Doesn't matter that it turned out to be a harmless woman. It just that fear that it might be a dangerous woman.

Truthlikeness · 13/03/2021 22:33

As a white person, when I hear white people criticised for racism, I accept that some white people are racists, I resolve to call out racism if I see it and I search for any ways my own behaviour could unwittingly be considered problematic. It's not that fucking hard not to be an idiot.

ErrolTheDragon · 13/03/2021 22:42

I think the answer to the misogyny/misandry question is neither should of themselves be a crime. Sexism should be included along with the other protected characteristics as motivator or aggravating factor in hate crimes ie where an actual crime has been committed. So sure, make it equally applicable for crimes committed against women because of hatred of women, and against men because of hatred of men. How many violent and/or sexual offences and murders would each of those apply to?

NiceGerbil · 14/03/2021 04:26

There's another thread called why aren't men afraid which might help.

I would ask them what they are doing to tackle male on male violence. Do they donate to charity or what?

My suspicion is that the vast majority of people who say this sort of thing do nothing. They only suddenly care when women start talking about things that happen to them.

NiceGerbil · 14/03/2021 04:28

I think blocking them was the right thing to do though.

SmellsLikeTeenBedroom · 14/03/2021 08:30

Not trying to derail the thread, but i bought this book for my dc. Ive taught Critical Thinking in secondary school, and this book presents a lot of those concepts in a picture book way. E.g post hoc ergo propter hoc, straw man etc

books.google.com/books/about/An_Illustrated_Book_of_Bad_Arguments.html?id=286aBQAAQBAJ

LizzieSiddal · 14/03/2021 08:37

It’s the same people who say “All lives matter”. They don’t have the brain power to think further than themselves.

GNCQ that’s a great post. Male violence and individual males are not the same thing. And I’d ask the NALMALTers, what they’d suggest calling it, if not “Male violence”?

Outbutnotoutout · 14/03/2021 08:54

Interesting thoughts

The thread has now vanished, ah well

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BusyLizzie61 · 14/03/2021 09:22

@Outbutnotoutout

If anything of course....

Having a debate about women feeling unsafe and getting lots of "but what about the men" comments, "more men are killed" I agree but uts mostly men doing the killing.

I said misogyny should be a crime and a man responded with "Misandry should be a crime as well"

Do you agree?
How do I respond?

(For some reason I don't have voting)

I'd agree with him!
Outbutnotoutout · 14/03/2021 09:54

@BusyLizzie61

That's great, can you tell me why?

OP posts:
Iamhangingin · 14/03/2021 10:00

As a white person, when I hear white people criticised for racism, I accept that some white people are racists, I resolve to call out racism if I see it and I search for any ways my own behaviour could unwittingly be considered problematic. It's not that fucking hard not to be an idiot.

@Truthlikeness

This is my position. It had never occurred to me to be defensive or counter argue.

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