When, legally, must ONS change their guidance?

[MapGirlExtraordinaire]

I've just been reading through yesterday's chat thread about the ONS ruling. Thanks to all who tweeted and commentate, really good to read it as it unfolded.

I just checked back on ONS's twitter, also their website, and it's as though the ruling never happened.

They're answering all sorts of questions from people about access codes, stating overnight. They have not tweeted anything about guidance changing

In their website they have a section about what to put under sex, the various considerations etc. I must admit I haven't read them all but in the segment called 'Final guidance' the following was included (see pic).

So it's been nearly 24 hours and no action following the ruling.

Anyone know what the legal requirement is?

I think that's a perfectly valid way to use the internet, and what most people do. You're right, ONS should change the wording or remove this page.

Using DuckDuckGo with a cleared cache, if I search
''Census 2021 guidance for the question “What is your sex?”

I get half a page of links about the court case, then the ONS advise page with the inaccurate info still included;

''The direction on how to answer has been amended to align with the target concept being "sex as recorded on legal/official documents" and cognitive testing findings (2020:6). The recommended guidance is:
"If you are considering how to answer, use the sex recorded on one of your legal documents such as a birth certificate, Gender Recognition Certificate, or passport."
www.ons.gov.uk/census/censustransformationprogramme/questiondevelopment/genderidentity/census2021finalguidanceforthequestionwhatisyoursex

A bit down from that hit was this for the NI version which looks to be wrong - does the ruling not apply to the whole U.K.?

census.gov.uk/ni/help/help-with-the-questions/online-questions-help/what-is-your-sex

I just 'binged' the following:
'ons 2021 how should I answer sex as a trans person'

the first answer came up as www.ons.gov.uk/census/censustransformationprogramme/questiondevelopment/genderidentity/guidanceforquestionsonsexgenderidentityandsexualorientationforthe2019censusrehearsalforthe2021census

Then reading the Notice at the top gave me www.ons.gov.uk/census/censustransformationprogramme/questiondevelopment/genderidentity/census2021finalguidanceforthequestionwhatisyoursex

Although it says in section 3 the final guidance will be elsewhere it states what it will say.

Most people who have bothered to search won't think they need to go elsewhere as it says it is 'final guidance'.

I think it needs a red sticker on it.

Perhaps we should contact ONS to let them know? The judge didn't order them to change their guidance for fun.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Perhaps we should contact ONS to let them know? The judge didn't order them to change their guidance for fun.

If you know how to, definitely!

The apparent difference in results between Google and DuckDuckGo is interesting.

I noticed over the past few days that when you typed "reddit superstraight" into Google the search results brought up PinkNews first, and the link to the actual subreddit seemed to keep moving further down the page! The algorithmic manipulation was very obvious. I'm not convinced that the same is happening here, but it seems very possible.

Well people could tweet if they weren't completely ignoring all tweets ever about this

*I'm not on twitter, MN is as far as my social media usage goes

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sorry I think I misread the DuckDuckGo bit - they're coming up with the wrong guidance first too? I don't think DDG tends to exhibit the same signs of manipulation as Google does so I retract my speculation - this is probably not a case of the search engines playing silly buggers.

Maybe the search results are cached. It's up to ONS Comms team to be cognisant of this internet reality and change the page wording to reflect the interim order.

@allmywhat

The apparent difference in results between Google and DuckDuckGo is interesting.

I noticed over the past few days that when you typed "reddit superstraight" into Google the search results brought up PinkNews first, and the link to the actual subreddit seemed to keep moving further down the page! The algorithmic manipulation was very obvious. I'm not convinced that the same is happening here, but it seems very possible.

The fact that the top hit isn't the actual current guidance does seem odd, to say the least.

Yes, DuckDuckGo link to the wrong ONS guidance, and Google gives me both the wrong ONS guidance, and Census '21for Northern Ireland which I've archived so its date stamped.

archive.is/NoA3n

archive.is/6avfR

I'm still confused why people are donating thousands of dollars to changing the text on a website when trans people will still vote as they see fit, similar to prior times.

Do you actually, legitimately, think this'll change anything?

I don't care much about trans people lying on the Census but I do care about self-ID being introduced via stealth and institutional capture, so I was extremely happy to donate to the crowdfunder.

I don't see why it bothers you that other people think the Census guidance is important, just because you've decided for yourself that it's irrelevant.

It makes it a legal requirement to put your legal sex on the Census Evarish.

Do you not think having a robust and thorough law is important just because its inevitable some people will choose to break it?

I do.

It's not a vote and we don't use dollars in the U.K. @Evarish. Perhaps you need to do a little more research.

@MapGirlExtraordinaire

It makes it a legal requirement to put your legal sex on the Census Evarish.

Do you not think having a robust and thorough law is important just because its inevitable some people will choose to break it?

I do.

So I'm assuming you had these same qualms in 2010 when trans people filled it out exactly the same as the writing asks for at current?

@Clymene

It's not a vote and we don't use dollars in the U.K. *@Evarish*. Perhaps you need to do a little more research.

Used to a different audience (not to mention I know thousands will be coming in from conservative Americans), also know it's not a vote, but it's a tick box and my mind jumped to voting.

@Evarish

I'm still confused why people are donating thousands of dollars to changing the text on a website when trans people will still vote as they see fit, similar to prior times.

Do you actually, legitimately, think this'll change anything?

We're challenging people who are breaking the law. We have to do that because what they are doing will remove our rights, which we need.

This should concern everyone who understands how the law and rights work. If they can take away our rights, they can take away yours in the future.

There wasn't a census in 2010 so not sure where you are getting your information from.

not to mention I know thousands will be coming in from conservative Americans

@Evarish

I'm still confused why people are donating thousands of dollars to changing the text on a website when trans people will still vote as they see fit, similar to prior times.

Do you actually, legitimately, think this'll change anything?

It clarifies that the question relates solely to legal sex. This is about statistics, facts. Not a vote or opinion. If you find that concept confusing, frankly that's your problem.

I didn't have any qualms in 2010 because I hadn't read anything about this and hadn't got any grasp of the ramifications. If I had then yes, I would have been concerned.

Back in 2010 I was a naive and happy 30 Yr old who was much more of the be kind way of thinking.

I had one trans friend, a 60 year old trans woman who was lovely and friendly and shy and used the women's loo at work. I had no issue with this.

I do remember having a moment of doubt when said friend proudly told me she held a world record in a very specific sport outing! in the women's age category of 60+. But I didn't think more of it.

However A LOT has changed in the last decade, not least my understanding.

I'd suggest that we don't allow people to derail this thread with uninformed nonsense they don't understand.