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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tuesday 9th March - could be a big day

913 replies

Xanthangum · 08/03/2021 18:01

  1. Helen Staniland and Glinner giving evidence to the Commons
  1. Fair Play For Women VS UK Statistics Authority at Royal Courts of Justice at 10am
  1. The Court of Appeal and Harry/ We Are Fair Cop - The Court of Appeal will examine the validity of the College of Police Hate Crimes Guidance

I wanted to start a thread where any major decisions or outcomes and links to anyone live tweeting or online footage. See you back here tomorrow!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/03/2021 12:41

ii) Undermines expert experience and judgement of the ONS, and the nature and care of that engagement with the trans community. Response rates could be impacted /49

iii) The census has gone 'live'.
Judge - how many people have replied?
Numbers so far among 3 million so far. /50

GAHgamel · 09/03/2021 12:42

From what I can remember of "Balance of Convenience" arguments before, I think what he's saying here that it's worse for people to have no guidance in the short term and then the existing guidance to be reinstated, than for people to argue according to the wrong guidance which is then withdrawn. I might be biased but I reckon that's cobblers.

highame · 09/03/2021 12:42

That engagement with Stonewall law

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/03/2021 12:43

iv) Nothing to indicate that conflation of sex and gender identity is damaging in statistical terms. /51

OvaHere · 09/03/2021 12:43

Was the census made live early specifically to undermine this legal challenge?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/03/2021 12:43

@OvaHere

Was the census made live early specifically to undermine this legal challenge?
A cynic would say so....
FindTheTruth · 09/03/2021 12:44

[undermines] engagement with the trans community.

No. it 'undermines' engagement with Stonewall. Stonewall don't speak for all trans.

Accurate data helps trans people and hurts Stonewall's legacy long term.

TheRabbitOfCaerbannog · 09/03/2021 12:44

[quote ChazsBrilliantAttitude]@HamsterV2
That’s the real crying shame of the whole thing. Trans people need accurate data just as much as women do. How can you advocate for the services you need if the number of trans people is being artificially lowered in the census. It’s going to be a real issue if councils start turning around and saying the census shows fewer trans people than they expected so services can be scaled back or not set up in the first place.[/quote]
Agree that the census is important to make sure people get the appropriate services and that there is sufficient capacity. It's also going to waste time and money if a sizeable group of 20 something trans/NBs record their sex as female - the census is used to decide important services like maternity provision ffs.

BettyFilous · 09/03/2021 12:45

Thanks all for the live posting. I have caught up over lunch. I’m pleased it is the same judge who a crash course in the sex/gender jiggery-pokery over prisons. Following with interest.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/03/2021 12:45

Jason Coppel replies:

Defendant does not appear to accept that the guidance is a position on self-identity. It plainly does because passport can be changed on demand (just needing a doctors note - not a diagnosis) /52

TheRabbitOfCaerbannog · 09/03/2021 12:46

I am having difficulty understanding = please try again because at the moment your argument is somewhere between unclear and utter bollocks*

🤣

Datun · 09/03/2021 12:46

v) Nothing to indicate that conflation of sex and gender identity is damaging in statistical terms. /51

Oh, I've heard it all. How do they know??? If you're not counting the number of people who might put false information on the census, how do you know how many people have done it??
🤣

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/03/2021 12:47

Defendants contention that statutory interpretation of sex = sex written on any document is 'hopeless' /53

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/03/2021 12:47

Bellinger and the GRA2004 defines sex. GRA2004 IS a "sex act" /54

highame · 09/03/2021 12:49

Yes ^

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/03/2021 12:49

it would be funny if the outcome of all this turns out to be that people just could no longer change their sex on their passport at more-or-less will.

I think closing that particular loophole would be the best outcome.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/03/2021 12:50

think closing that particular loophole would be the best outcome

For all documents, not just passport

McDuffy · 09/03/2021 12:50

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Defendants contention that statutory interpretation of sex = sex written on any document is 'hopeless' /53
Crikey
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/03/2021 12:52

Interim relief: Should be some scepticism on defendants contentions to harmful effect of changing the guidance.

ONS's own evidence has user testing that tested 'no guidance' and this did not cause problems with anyone being able to answer /55

Datun · 09/03/2021 12:53

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

think closing that particular loophole would be the best outcome

For all documents, not just passport

Indeed. It's batshit that you can do it. Either sex is relevant, in which case it should be correct. Or it isn't, in which case leave it out altogether.
CardinalLolzy · 09/03/2021 12:54

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Defendants contention that statutory interpretation of sex = sex written on any document is 'hopeless' /53
The judge said that?? Shock Genuinely mindblowing to see anyone say that out loud!
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/03/2021 12:54

Judge needs time to think about decision. Proposes to deliver judgement at 2pm.

Court adjourned /56

SchadenfreudePersonified · 09/03/2021 12:54

Glinner has posted this on behalf of Lauren Black, if anyone is interested. I feel that it indicates the one-sidedness of many of these "debates".

V V V V V V V

A lesbian response to Panti Bliss

Graham Linehan
Mar 9

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The Irish Independent refused to print Lauren Black’s response to a disingenuous interview with Panti Bliss, so I’m putting it here. If you want to ask why this response was not published, you can write to The Independent at [email protected]

Dear Sir,

I read the write up of your interview with Rory O’Neil in last week’s Sunday Independent with a sense of growing astonishment. In the first paragraphs, self-pity and entitlement were on full display (shopping at Dunnes, oh the indignity!) But it was the false claims regarding “twitter transphobia” that I found most disingenuous.

I grew up proudly working class, in County Armagh during the troubles. I am a butch lesbian, co-founder of the LGB Alliance Ireland. Last week, Rory, from his Panti Bliss account, claimed that I am supposedly an English transphobe. I am a Northern woman, so you can imagine my feelings being forced to go onto Graham Linehan’s podcast to prove my Irish credentials to the followers of someone calling themselves “Panti Bliss.”

Even this did not stop the onslaught of abuse that was being sent my way by Panti's followers. I was accused (in frankly sectarian terms) of not being Irish enough. My accent was ripped to pieces, as having not spent any “significant part” of my childhood here. I was accused of “penis envy” and told that I should “drop the butch lesbian schtick” and “just transition.” I was accused of being a right-wing racist.

Even when Panti conceded that I am Irish, no apology was issued and no call to stop the abuse was made to the 74,000 followers of the account.

Rory was wrong to call me out for not being Irish, he was wrong to double down, he was wrong not to apologise, and he is wrong again, claiming that he was the victim in what happened when he was, in fact, the instigator.

I responded then, as I respond now. All the nonsense about who is properly Irish is just guff, and xenophobic guff to boot. This is the land of 1,000 welcomes, and there are rightly people who were not born here on all sides of the trans debates.

All of this is a massive distraction from the actual issues. There is a real debate to be had here, about LGB rights, about women’s spaces and women’s sports, about the huge explosion in gender-questioning children, about the medical transition of those children, about what counts as conversion therapy, and about the harms of the affirmation model, even for adults.

I reiterate my call to Rory, for a moderated debate on the actual issues. Let’s get this out in the open, instead of calling down Twitter mobs on false pretences, as Rory did, then crying victim in the Sunday papers when it doesn’t go his way.

Sincerely,

Lauren Black.

McDuffy · 09/03/2021 12:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/03/2021 12:55

Gah! 2pm . There's going to be a lot of overlap - hopefully this thread will bring all the cases together.