Autogynephilia: One Man's Account | with Kayla

[MoleSmokes]

Benjamin Boyce interview with Kayla - very interesting + lovely musical interlude!

Mods: I hope you will not delete this thread for the title, which is the title of the video. One of the problems raised by Kayla is the denial by Trans Rights Activists that Autogynephilia even exists, which makes it very hard for him, and other people with the condition, to discuss it. Kayla also says that he does not care what pronouns are used and is happy with he/him/his.

Kayla explains what Ray Blanchard means by "childhood fetishistic experience" as a precursor to AGP in adolescence and adulthood and how he experienced this. I think I have remembered the terminology correctly. What it describes is different to the usual meaning, ie. as in post-puberty.

There is also discussion of single-sex spaces, passing and non-passing appearance and the difference between HSTS and AGP - to the extent that Kayla feels it is confusing and unhelpful that they are lumped together.

He does not think that it is wise for children to be transitioned and that adults should just make the best of it that they can if they decide to transition in order to alleviate their dysphoria/dysmorphia.

Also interesting is that Kayla, who is 34 and lives in New York, says that to the best of his knowledge he has never met another AGP.

I would be really interested to know what TinselAngel makes of this interview

"Autogynephilia: One Man's Account | with Kayla"

(I was going to leave posting this until after IWD but with my memory I will probably forget by tomorrow!)

Fascinating. I'm struck - as ever - by how Kayla's idea of presenting as a woman is so, so far removed from my experience of being a woman, particularly around dress.

Sad how he thinks GC women hate him - I think he's brave and being true to himself.

I watched this last night. The musical interlude was beautiful.

I appreciated hearing a perspective I don't usually hear from and an insight into someone else's thinking. I like Benjamins long style interview style which is deep but not combative (I like listening to podcasts at bedtime and can't bear conflict!)

It does make you wonder how things might have panned out if the idea of possessing a "Gender Identity" had never been postulated and then promoted so effectively. I do feel that the resulting "gender identity industry" has done a huge disservice to everyone, at an individual and societal level.

The way that Kayla talks about his AGP reminded me of Courtney Coulson, a FtMtF detransitioner on YouTube, who talks about her autism and erotic response to machines - especially cars.

When she and Kayla talk about their male and female "identities" I cannot help but be reminded of Dissociative Identity Disorder aka "Multiple Personality Disorder". I am not saying that that is what they are describing, just that it is possible to imagine it not sounding complete nonsense if you substituted "personality" (in the DID sense) whenever they mention "identity".

Courtney Coulson's YouTube Channel
www.youtube.com/channel/UC7mBU2OeCLxPmUuQ24eON6A

A thought experiment: if "gender identity" had not been proposed by John Money as a handy "catch all" for a range of human experiences to do with gender and sexuality, might these complex conditions affecting different populations be better understood? Would individuals be happier if they were encouraged to consider themselves as rather more multi-faceted and not confined to a "gender box" theory?

I finally read John Colapinoto's book 'As Nature Made Him' about David Reimer, and John Money was shown to be absolute and total shit, and professionally fraudulent to the nth degree. It's astounding that any of his work still has any credibility at all, least of all his idiocies about gender.

Which medical institutions recognize AGP as a diagnosis, I wonder?

Is it a diagnosis or just a kink?

As I understand it, AGP is a particular type of fetish, in the old sense, and it passes into a mental health diagnosis when it leads to significant dysphoria. Presumably that suggests that it doesn't always.

But fetishes were understood to be an abnormal sexual fixation, usually acquired involuntarily during adolescence due to some sort of formative or even traumatic experience. People seem to use it a little differently now but I think that still holds from a medical POV.

I think AGP might be in the DSM (USA) but I wouldn't swear to it.

"Autogynephilia: an underappreciated paraphilia"
Anne A Lawrence
2011 Oct 10

Abstract

Autogynephilia is defined as a male's propensity to be sexually aroused by the thought of himself as a female. It is the paraphilia that is theorized to underlie transvestism and some forms of male-to-female (MtF) transsexualism. Autogynephilia encompasses sexual arousal with cross-dressing and cross-gender expression that does not involve women's clothing per se. The concept of autogynephilia defines a typology of MtF transsexualism and offers a theory of motivation for one type of MtF transsexualism. Autogynephilia resembles a sexual orientation in that it involves elements of idealization and attachment as well as erotic desire. Nearly 3% of men in Western countries may experience autogynephilia; its most severe manifestation, MtF transsexualism, is rare but increasing in prevalence. Some theorists and clinicians reject the transsexual typology and theory of motivation derived from autogynephilia; their objections suggest a need for additional research. The concept of autogynephilia can assist clinicians in understanding some otherwise puzzling manifestations of nonhomosexual MtF transsexualism. Autogynephilia exemplifies an unusual paraphilic category called 'erotic target identity inversions', in which men desire to impersonate or turn their bodies into facsimiles of the persons or things to which they are sexually attracted.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22005209/

"What Is Autogynephilia? An Interview with Dr Ray Blanchard"
written by Louise Perry
November 6, 2019

Ray Blanchard is an adjunct Professor of Psychiatry at the University of Toronto who specialises in the study of human sexuality, with a particular focus on sexual orientation, paraphilias, and gender identity disorders. In the 1980s and 1990s he developed a theory around the causes of gender dysphoria in natal males that became known as ‘Blanchard’s transsexualism typology’. This typology—which continues to attract a great deal of controversy—categorizes trans women (that is, natal males who identify as women) into two discrete groups.

The first group is composed of ‘androphilic’ (sometimes termed ‘homosexual’) trans women, who are exclusively sexually attracted to men and are markedly feminine in behaviour and appearance from a young age. They typically begin the process of medical transition before the age of 30.

The second group are motivated to transition as a result of what Blanchard termed ‘autogynephilia’: a sexual orientation defined by sexual arousal at the thought or image of oneself as a woman. Autogynephiles are typically sexually attracted to women, although they may also identify as asexual or bisexual. They are more likely to transition later in life and to have been conventionally masculine in presentation up until that point.

Although Blanchard’s typology is supported by a wide range of sexologists and other researchers, it is strongly rejected by most trans activists who dispute the existence of autogynephilia. The medical historian Alice Dreger, whose 2015 book Galileo’s Middle Finger included an account of the autogynephilia controversy, summarises the conflict:

"There’s a critical difference between autogynephilia and most other sexual orientations: Most other orientations aren’t erotically disrupted simply by being labeled. When you call a typical gay man homosexual, you’re not disturbing his sexual hopes and desires. By contrast, autogynephilia is perhaps best understood as a love that would really rather we didn’t speak its name. The ultimate eroticism of autogynephilia lies in the idea of really becoming or being a woman, not in being a natal male who desires to be a woman."

I interviewed Blanchard over email and Skype. The text has been lightly edited for clarity.

Continued at:
quillette.com/2019/11/06/what-is-autogynephilia-an-interview-with-dr-ray-blanchard/

@MsGrumpytrousers how did you find the book? I've been interested in it but always worried it might be too graphic and upsetting... DS is around David's age when the surgeries began

Thank you, that was fascinating. I really want to thank Kyle/ Kayla for the insight offered. It confirms that gender dysphoria is a dreadful, life-consuming mental illness — as GC people have always acknowledged. I hope he's able to find some peace.

But what about the 96% who aren't dysphoric?

Thank you for posting this! I clicked on the video out of curiosity - saw it was over and hour and assumed I'd probably watch like a few minutes max to get the general vibe - ended up watching the entire thing!

I was drawn in by the relaxing style of it all but stayed because Kayla was so engaging and open and honest and vulnerable. It was a fantastic interview and the very first time I felt genuine sympathy and support for a transwomen. My experience before that has felt like we must simply give up the definition women and everything that comes with it or be called transphobic and abused online. I think if all transwomen were like Kayla - i'd feel very differently. Where she says that she is against using womens spaces and sports. And in her words - "We choose to wear a dress and we can choose not to wear it and use the mens bathroom without issue. Women dont have that option". I have a lot of respect for her bravery in speaking out. A different voice from the other side.

@YawnyOwl, it's not graphic, no. The disastrous operation on Brian is over in a moment. It's the sheer cruelty of the experiment that's distressing. The parents are young and impressionable and essentially too traumatised to do anything but what the expert says. And the Money regime is really oppressive - there's one bit where David says that as Brenda, he was the only girl in the school still wearing skirts in the winter; all the other girls were in pants, but his parents had been encouraged to throw all their parental instincts aside in order to impose a gender straitjacket on the boy who was now supposed to be their daughter.

Just the level of bullying involved is vile - the utter callousness of Money. And the lies he told, because it was all about him and his status. I believe that he still hasn't really been vilified for the way he behaved or for having made false claims.

When the book ends, David is finally making a life for himself, and was secure enough to give up his anonymity and appear in a documentary, so it's also very upsetting to find out what happened afterwards. So not an easy read in any way.

It's also not simple: I don't think it proves that David Reimer necessarily had an innate sense of maleness, which is how it's sometimes sold. In many ways, it's about the arrogance of experts, and male privilege that goes unchallenged. And the irony of it all is gut-wrenching: after the operation, they sent the other twin home uncircumcised and the problem that had prompted the operation cleared up in weeks. So it is devastating.

So it's a book that should be widely read, but I'm really not sure how strongly I'd recommend it if you think it might be too close to home.

I watched this last night and hoped someone would post a thread.

Thank you, Kayla, if you read these comments. I am one of the ones who has been vocal about men keeping their fetishes out of my spaces IRL You gave me a lot to think about and I feel bad that I oversimplified things before. You are brave and honest. At least right now, you are the public figure I would most like to hear more from. I thought I had all the evidence I needed before I watched this interview.

Also thanks to Benjamin Boyce. I am not a regular fan but you were the perfect person to do this interview. I can admit that sometimes I get caught up in an echo chamber where male voices don’t exist. You really gave me so much insight and so much to think about.

I don’t want to go overboard, but if I am honest, this video unpeaked me a tiny bit. It reminded me that being a human is messy, and we mustn't stop listening even when we think we’ve heard everything because the last 9,000 people to engage with us spouted anti-science nonsense. Sometimes we need to keep listening for those whispers of sanity coming from the corners. And sometimes, must admit, it is a man who drags one of those voices into the spotlight for us to listen to.

Thank you, Mole.

@MsGrumpytrousers thank you so much for your thorough response. I may try it and see how I get on

I watched it too. I also liked Kayla and I enjoy BB's interview style. What it said to me is that people are who they are. I am not sure there are many people on this board who would argue that transpeople don't feel what they feel. Our push back is against aggressive activism which is something different.

Hearing Kayla speak about presentation to the world reminded me of a time in my teens when my aunt insisted I wear a "naice" dress for a job interview. I was spotted by a group of mates who rode the same train, and I felt as if I wanted to peel my skin off for the duration of the train ride and the rest of the day. It gave me a window into how it feels to be so uncomfortable with one's presentation to the world, and how having more control over one's image is important, sometimes at a very visceral level.

I appreciate being able to sense someone else's perspective. It made me feel less angry. This is the kind of conversation we need I think. I have not changed my mind in anyway about the importance of women's space, language, rights. But Kayla pointed out that politicians hold the line for people, it is their job. The problem is currently only the Conservative party are doing that, and only just by the skin of their teeth.

Kayla is interesting.

Always interesting to hear another view. And bump.