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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Paris Protest by Sex Trade survivors attacked

70 replies

OhHolyJesus · 07/03/2021 23:00

It just never ends.

twitter.com/radfmnst/status/1368678240127234050?s=21

OP posts:
stumbledin · 10/03/2021 16:37

hoodathunkit - I would take anything that the ECP says with a pinch of salt. They are part of what was Wages for Housework and is now Global Women's Strike. ie they are part of the queer alliance undermining women's rights.

ECP "sex workers union" activists are as has been said cover for pimps.

They collaborate with the male narrative that some women will never have a proper job so let them be sex workers. No one says that about men.

When and if there are enough groups and organisations campaigning to get women proper training and employment so that they and genuinely "choose" to work in prostitution is a true choice, it will be a different situation.

But agree that not consulting with women in an area where you want to protest is wrong, and that is why after the first RtN they no longer went through Soho (chosen as a route to confront men). So in fact part of the power of the London RtN to confront men has been undermined by putting the feelings of other women first.

Even though many thought the protests were organised by the male exploiters.

And yes there are organisations here in the UK and elsewhere who work with women on the streets, but there aim is to empower and enable women to leave sexual exploitation, not to support the a system that makes women available to men.

And anyhow, it is quite clear that the protest in Paris was part of the queer anti autonomous women's movement violent activism.

hoodathunkit · 10/03/2021 17:11

hoodathunkit - I would take anything that the ECP says with a pinch of salt. They are part of what was Wages for Housework and is now Global Women's Strike. ie they are part of the queer alliance undermining women's rights.

ECP "sex workers union" activists are as has been said cover for pimps.

The ECP and the Crossroad's Women's Centre / Global Women's Strike are an organisation about which I have many serious concerns.

They have always struck me as incredibly dodgy for various reasons. Recently they became very involved in protesting outside the family courts as part of proests claiming that the British state is involved in kidnapping children from innocent parents. They have protested alongside some notorious grifters including the fake police whistleblower Jon Wedger.

The point I was making is that if feminists do not consult with women who sell sex before protesting in ways that stop them from earning money it makes it easier for groups like the ECP to recruit those same vulnerable women.

But agree that not consulting with women in an area where you want to protest is wrong, and that is why after the first RtN they no longer went through Soho (chosen as a route to confront men). So in fact part of the power of the London RtN to confront men has been undermined by putting the feelings of other women first.

The skirmishes happend in Soho and I am pleased to hear that RtN changed their protest route.

And yes there are organisations here in the UK and elsewhere who work with women on the streets, but there aim is to empower and enable women to leave sexual exploitation, not to support the a system that makes women available to men.

My inclination would be to help the women do what is right for them. In my experience women who are offered support from "rescuing" services often decline help.

I believe that prostitution is a harmful way of life, however women are more likely to leave prostitution of they feel their agency and choices are respected.

The initiative that caused the most women to exit the most dangerous type of prostitution, selling sex on the street, was the "British System" of diamorphine prescribing, administered by health professionals, on site at accessible locations in Merseyside, by Dr John Marks.

Under the British System there was a significant reduction in acquisitive crime (93%) and many people who had engaged in criminal careers that were harmful to themselves and others started to lead normal lives.

Most of not all of the people selling sex in the most degrading and dangerous situations are struggling with substance addiction, usually heroin.

Without the need to sell sex or commit acquisitive crime or deal drugs to support thier habit, all the long term, chaotic drug users I met (and I met several who I had long conversations with) decided that they wanted to change their lives, stop taking drugs and lead productive lives.

I suspect that the same is true of people involved in the most risky and dangerous types of sex work. Offers of rescuing tend to be rejected, whereas curiosity and genuine concern and support will likely be more productive.

Further reading, just an example, there is a lot to find online

www.linkedin.com/pulse/british-system-has-been-revived-again-glasgow-heroin-users-newcombe

hoodathunkit · 10/03/2021 17:26

readers might find this video interesting

It includes an interview with a former sex worker, I met several women in her situation before D Marks's clinic was closed down

MargaritaPie · 10/03/2021 17:37

"They were calling them pimps because one of the organisations represented in the egg throwing crowd, which styles itself as being pro- sex worker, is in fact notorious for being a lobby for pimps. It’s quite common, this is also happens in the uk and is one of the reasons feminists prefer to avoid the term “sex worker” because it makes it too easy to collapse the group to include pimps and madams whose interests are not aligned with prostitutes/ prostituted women."

I'm not following. Sex worker unions (made up of adults who sell sexual services) do exist yes, UK-based orgs include Scot-Pep, IUSW, Umbrella Lane and The English Collective of Prostitutes. It isn't necessary about being "pro sex work", but rather the fact they are sex workers (or "prostitutes" if you'd rather call them that) themselves and they want whatever is in their best interest. This means for one example, whenever there is a consultation to change the law they of course want to be organised to ensure their views are heard (since of course, whatever the law on sex work is, it will affect sex workers themselves more than anyone).

Example did you know the groups I mentioned above get zero funding from the UK Government? The Government's opinion on sex work is that it is "violence against women" and will only give funding to orgs who agree with this definition. This means thousand upon thousands of sex workers are locked out of receiving Government funding because they have a different opinion from a bunch of middle-aged men who are hardly experts on the topic.

I'm really not sure where "pimp lobby" or "lobby for pimps" comes from, it's certainly a term that's thrown around a lot.

MissBarbary · 10/03/2021 20:09

Example did you know the groups I mentioned above get zero funding from the UK Government? The Government's opinion on sex work is that it is "violence against women"

Well it is.

Stealhsquirrelnutkin · 10/03/2021 20:58

This reminds me very strongly of the video I saw of Paula Lamont being hounded off a picket line by a mob on International Women’s Day 2018. The attack was connected to her having been recognised leaving a meeting about the planned changes to the GRA held by A Woman’s Place UK (WPUK) in London on February 27.

In the video she is being mobbed by enraged young people, their faces are contorted with hatred, and they are screaming into her face that she is a TERF.

The hatred is palpable and shocking, violence is simmering, physical attack is imminent, they only need to gear themselves up a tiny bit more and they will tear her to pieces. If the police had not intervened she could have been seriously hurt. womansplaceuk.org/footage-of-picket-line-attack/ It was googling for an explanation of the word TERF that opened my eyes to this new threat to women's rights. Before that I'd been oblivious and fully on side with the "be kind" and "they just want to pee" side of the (non existent) debate.

These are the same violent children who attacked the Jam Jar in Bristol, and who hammered on the windows of the meeting in Bristol. They identify as fearless warriors fighting against fascism, and they are very brave indeed when in a large group surrounding a cowering, lone woman.

They deflated and slunk off as soon as the policeman pointed out that they would be spending the night in a cell if they kept it up. More like a bunch of cowardly bullies working out their mummy issues on a defenceless scapegoat, than fearless freedom fighters standing against fascism. For a group who believes that all cops are bastards and the police must be disbanded, along with the entire legal and prison systems, they didn't seem to have the courage of their convictions when given the perfect opportunity to take a stand.

They've convinced themselves that older, wiser feminists are all right wing, religious fundamentalists, driven by fear and hatred for gender non conforming people. They pretend that sex "work" is empowering - a natural progression from the "glamour" models of the 90s who decided that feminism had done its job, and that only ugly, old, sex hating frumps had any reason to doubt the benefit of getting your tits out for the lads.

They scream SWERF and YOU HATE WHORES into the faces of women who have escaped prostitution, and pretend that they know all about sex "work" because they've done a few web cams from the anonymous safety of their own bedrooms.

In ten years time most of them will have matured, realised that they'd been fed a load of lies, and start to understand the very real reasons why we women fought to establish our rights and to safeguard them and protect our children. I'm a bit shit at forgiving and forgetting, but I'm sure a lot of people who are nicer than me will manage it.

Personally, if I saw the CV of one of those young women in a pile of job applicants I would discard it immediately. My views on Tara Wolf who assaulted Maria MacLachlan and broke her camera would get me banned, so I'll leave them to the imagination of the reader.

MargaritaPie · 10/03/2021 20:58

So you think it's ok for British based sex worker unions to receive zero funding, even though between them all they probably make up many thousands of sex workers?

The funding should instead go to groups who don't have any sex workers? Have people who aren't sex workers speak on the behalf of sex workers?

MissBarbary · 10/03/2021 21:30

So you think it's ok for British based sex worker unions to receive zero funding, even though between them all they probably make up many thousands of sex workers?

Yes, I'm fine with that. If "sex work is work" what do they need government money for?

MargaritaPie · 10/03/2021 23:46

From Scot-Pep's website:

"We campaign for laws that would make sex workers safer, we make sure sex workers voices are heard in debates about sex work policy, we produce resources, we meet with charities, women’s organisations and others involved in social justice movements to talk about how sex workers can be better supported, we create space for sex workers to meet and build collective power, and we put on events such as film screenings and discussions."

scot-pep.org.uk/campaigns/

LemonSwan · 11/03/2021 00:15

Honestly regardless of which side of the prostitution argument people stand on I just cannot believe how people can not have a civil disagreement these days without resorting to violence and intimidation.

It is so embarassing to see younger generations (those young girls throwing eggs) behaving like this. I say that as a 30yo who has been having this discussion a lot with people my age and younger 25+ trying to understand it. Its a huge generational divide in the 20s age bracket. We had social media too, we also had internet. What is so different about these guys?!

The only plausible theory we currently have is they are the mobile internet generation. We never had internet or social media on our phones 24/7 as teens and we didnt have echo chambers in the same way - we had myspace, tumblr, facebook (family and friend based) etc. not twitter where you are rewarded with likes, retweets, attention through starting a twitter storm for more extreme view points.

Its a real problem. I hope they grow out of it but they are growing and they are not. It is concerning.

hoodathunkit · 11/03/2021 12:30

So you think it's ok for British based sex worker unions to receive zero funding, even though between them all they probably make up many thousands of sex workers?

In principle I have no problem with the concept of a sex workers’ union.

My concerns about the current situation with sex workers’ unions are as follows:

I am concerned about unions being established that have ulterior motives. For example a recently formed psychotherapists and counsellor’s union (no time to check the exact name) and a yoga teacher’s trade union have caused me concern due to entryism, Trojan horses, and links to controversial pseudo-spiritual movements involving sex (many people would call sex cults). My main concern is that the unions would serve as protection to abusers and perpetrators of sexual and financial violations against vulnerable people.

I have the same concerns about sex worker unions as I do about yoga trade unions and counselling / psychotherapy trade unions.

An example of my concerns about sex worker trade unions can be found in the below text, written by the notorious pornographer and advocate of paedophillia Tuppy Owens. In the below text and link Tuppy describes how she founded the International Union of Sex Work Projects. Tuppy is a fascinating person who I have had the immense displeasure of meeting in person on several occasions. I have posted about her here before, along with evidential links to her contributions to the pro-paedophile book Betrayal Of Youth (BOY).

text as follows, the author is Tuppy Owens;

A group of interested parties including myself, the founder of IUSW, the International Union of Sex Work Projects, Ana Lopes, Professor Petrouska Clarkson and James Palmer met in Petrouska’s Harley Street house to discuss the Institute. We were enthusiastic about starting TLC as an educational academy, which would raise funds to train sex workers and disabled people.*

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20210116030950/shadainternational.com/all-impairments/sexual-services/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20210116030950/shadainternational.com/all-impairments/sexual-services/

I am pushed for time now.

I just wanted to post here as I think my perspectives on sex work are different to those of some other posters here, at least in some ways.

I also have very serious concerns about the ECP an organisation I have posted about here previously.

I have other concerns but this will do for now

hoodathunkit · 11/03/2021 12:46

Sometime you discover strange connections between unions

What on earth is going on?

Paris Protest by Sex Trade survivors attacked
Paris Protest by Sex Trade survivors attacked
Paris Protest by Sex Trade survivors attacked
hoodathunkit · 11/03/2021 12:48

Thread about the yoga trade union here

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4157434-Sexual-harrassment-of-women-in-yoga-prevalent-union-formed-to-help-women-fight-back?msgid=104415912#104415912

sorry to post and run
later

MargaritaPie · 11/03/2021 12:49

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with yoga trade unions.

Your other point I think I've heard of that before if you're referring to what I think it is, it's called the TLC Trust. It's a non-profit org aimed at training sex workers (those who want this training that is) to understand the needs of their disabled clients better. The late Laura Lee was part of that if you've heard of her.

tlc-trust dot org dot uk
(because it contains escort details I won't make the link clickable).

What's your concern with that?

hoodathunkit · 11/03/2021 13:14

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with yoga trade unions.

Well now you have an opportunity to educate yourself - if you wish to of course

Your other point I think I've heard of that before if you're referring to what I think it is, it's called the TLC Trust. It's a non-profit org aimed at training sex workers (those who want this training that is) to understand the needs of their disabled clients better. The late Laura Lee was part of that if you've heard of her.

my concerns about TLC are as follows

It was founded by and, unless things have changed recently, is coordinated by Tuppy Owens.

My concerns about Tuppy are as follows:

Tuppy is a long time promoter of paedophillia. I have posted about this before along with evidential links

Tuppy's academic qualification is bogus. Tuppy obtained her dodgy doctorate from a notorious centre of quackery the Institute for Advanced Study of Human Sexuality (IASHS). The IASHS is an organisation worthy of scrutiny (understatement). Just for starters the faculty includes none other than former porn actress and promoter of the odious, racist Deer Tribe child abuse cult Annie Sprinkle and Joseph Kramer, Ph.D. - Professor (lol) of Somatic Sexology. The Adjunct Faculty includes K. Ray Stubbs aka Kenneth Ray Stubbs aka Ken Stubbs a co-author of the notorious “Deer Tribe Manual” in which the sexual abuse of minors is advocated and promoter of sex work as a sacred path via his various websites and books. Stubbs is a really interesting example of how a disabled gay man with an impressive background in human rights activism has drunk so deeply from the Kool Aid that he is now promoting a racist child abuse cult.

In fact Tuppy is closely involved with various members of the vile Deer Tribe cult.

The TLC Trust does not simply train sex workers to work with disabled clients, it includes sex worker profiles on its pages.

I appreciate that this is a sensitive issue. Some people, including Tuppy, say that carers should be legally compelled to contract sex workers on behalf of their disabled clients.

Some people, including Tuppy, have watched the film The Sessions and believe that profoundly disabled people should be entitled to sexual services on the NHS

Some people believe that it's nobody else's business what 2 consenting adults get up to sexually (my own opinion)

However the thing that really concerns me about the TLC website (it might be SHADA, another of Tuppy's sites) is that almost all if not all of the sex workers advertised there belong to controversial pseudo-spiritual movements that promote sex work as a sacred path and some even promote paedophillia as sacred ceremonies (the Deer Tribe)

Thus there is significant potential for abuse of vulnerable people, both disabled people and people who believe that they are saving the world by being "sacred sexual healers" and the like.

I'm running late now so more later

hoodathunkit · 11/03/2021 13:23

The activities of TLC are described in this article written by Tuppy

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20190408172118/tuppy-outsidersorguk.blogspot.com/2009/09/how-sweet-of-julie-bindel-to-mention.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20190408172118/tuppy-outsidersorguk.blogspot.com/2009/09/how-sweet-of-julie-bindel-to-mention.html

that really is it from me for now

MargaritaPie · 11/03/2021 19:35

"The TLC Trust does not simply train sex workers to work with disabled clients, it includes sex worker profiles on its pages."

Yes, the sex workers who have received training on disabilities and how to better accommodate disabled clients on their appointments. That's the whole idea.

I'm still not really following what the issue is with TLC trust. All I see from your post are allegations like "promoting pedophilia", "racist child abuse cult" etc flying around.

I've looked up Dr. Tuppy Owens- she is- quote- a "qualified sex therapist and the founder of Outsiders, which supports disabled people to find partners. She also runs the Sex and Disability Helpline and the Sexual Health & Disability Alliance. She created the TLC website and will be providing sexual advocates for disabled people"
www.theguardian.com/profile/tuppy-owens

I can't find anything that says she is or promotes paedophilia or child sex abuse. Everything I have read about her sounds good to me.

hoodathunkit · 12/03/2021 08:53

MargaritaPie

Please find the below archived webpage containing scans of the introductory pages of the pro-paedophillia book Betrayal of Youth, full title; The Betrayal of Youth: Radical Perspectives on Childhood Sexuality, Intergenerational Sex, and the Social Oppression of Children and Young People (London: CL Publications, 1986)

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20210303221420/www.repentuk.com/Press/The%20Betrayal%20of%20Youth.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20210303221420/www.repentuk.com/Press/The%20Betrayal%20of%20Youth.pdf

The Editor, Warren Middleton is described in the text as “one of the founding fathers of the paedophile movement in Britain”

The pages include a list of chapters, including chapter 6 “Love and Let Love’ by Tuppy Owens and Tom O’Carrol. Mr O’Carrol is described as “the ex-secretary and chairperson of PIE [the Paedophile Information Exchange] who almost single-handedly put the group on the map in the late seventies"

Chapter 6 Love and Let Love by Tuppy Owens and Tom O’Carrol can be read here (scanned from the original book)

WARNING; THIS CHAPTER ADVOCATES CHILD ADULT SEXUAL CONTACT AS A NORMAL / HEALTHY THING - obviously it is disturbing to read

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20161011014729/ianpace.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/owens-ocarroll-1.jpg" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20161011014729/ianpace.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/owens-ocarroll-1.jpg

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20161011025048/ianpace.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/owens-ocarroll-2.jpg" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20161011025048/ianpace.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/owens-ocarroll-2.jpg

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20161011022927/ianpace.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/owens-ocarroll-3.jpg" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20161011022927/ianpace.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/owens-ocarroll-3.jpg

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20170905123526/ianpace.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/owens-ocarroll-4.jpg" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20170905123526/ianpace.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/owens-ocarroll-4.jpg

I am grateful to Ian Pace’s for providing these important documents in his blog. He has written further about this book and the contributors here;

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20210210033916/ianpace.wordpress.com/2014/07/05/betrayal-of-youth-1986-including-the-contributions-of-middleton-owens-faust-tatchell/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20210210033916/ianpace.wordpress.com/2014/07/05/betrayal-of-youth-1986-including-the-contributions-of-middleton-owens-faust-tatchell/

Please find also an archived link to one of Tuppy’s Night of the Senses “erotic” events

There is so much of interest here but what caught my eye was this
"Queer C A M P - A tent for men & boys, women and girls to unleash their fantasies and see what happens."

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20210126043409/www.nightofthesenses.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20210126043409/www.nightofthesenses.com/

I am insanely busy and can provide much more information to Tuppy’s links to a paedophile cult if you feel her demonstrable links to the PIE are insufficient cause for concern.

You’re welcome :)

Porridgeoat · 12/03/2021 09:05

What the hell is happening in France?

MissBarbary · 12/03/2021 10:11

@MargaritaPie

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with yoga trade unions.

Your other point I think I've heard of that before if you're referring to what I think it is, it's called the TLC Trust. It's a non-profit org aimed at training sex workers (those who want this training that is) to understand the needs of their disabled clients better. The late Laura Lee was part of that if you've heard of her.

tlc-trust dot org dot uk
(because it contains escort details I won't make the link clickable).

What's your concern with that?

Plenty. That organisation and Laura Lee have both been discussed before on here.
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