We should talk about exclusively women's spaces

[Tibtom]

Inclusivity is constantly being presented as the was forward and discrimination as a terrible thing but at times discrimination is necessary in order to safeguard or to meet the needs of specific groups. Talking about single sex exemptions, though necessary as in the Equality Act, seems a very negative way to be approaching this argument. I have been wondering for a while if we should shout out more about the need for exclusively female spaces. That the default is exclusively female as this make it clearer that any attempt to be 'inclusive' destroys and exclusively female service?

I like the idea, but I think the issue is still going to be about what a woman/ female is. No matter how we present it, men are going to try and get in there by claiming to be women/female.

Yes. The recent answer from Kemi Badenoch re refuges was a good example of refocusing sensibly.

I agree OP, and being specific about where and when.

And also the reasons. The facts are that where women seek female only spaces there are key reasons why those females want and need them, and the purpose of the space would be lost or some of those females would be excluded if they were made mixed sex.

It is not random 'mean girl' behaviour or rejection, it is about the fact that inclusion and diversity sometimes means grouping by specific class for a reason. I very much doubt anyone would believe that a transwomen's support group should be inclusive of anyone but the full diversity of transwomen. There are times when women need this same equality of understanding.

There are places where it is not appropriate to be inclusive. For example when we say being inclusive in schools do we really mean that? There are certainly people we want to keep out of schools and this is the same for women only spaces.

Or kids playgrounds. In that case, the age limits are somewhat arbitrary. There may be some gentle teens who'd play nicely with the little'uns, and one or two tweens who don't - but most people understand the reasons for having a playground set aside for younger children.

Discrimination is not a bad thing, I discriminate all the time. I discriminate when some random bloke tries to butt into a conversation between me and my girlfriends for example. I reckon we have to think more about our boundaries and less about other peoples feelings. The emphasis on what we want. Not in relation to what others want.

@alkanet

Discrimination is not a bad thing, I discriminate all the time. I discriminate when some random bloke tries to butt into a conversation between me and my girlfriends for example. I reckon we have to think more about our boundaries and less about other peoples feelings. The emphasis on what we want. Not in relation to what others want.

Agree.

Agreed that it is about women being legally supported to maintain boundaries. The only reason so many women's organisations and groups have relented and admitted men is because of the financial and bureaucratic burden of fighting a legal case. Women's refuges are run on a shoestring, they don't have thousands to invest in legal fees to fight off a determined man wanting to breach their boundaries.

Inclusivity has been terrible for women's organisations. We should be able to say an event or a group or a women's organisation is women-only and the law should be firm and clear and back us up on that. When we say women it should always be assumed we mean adult human females. Transwomen aren't women.

When I was young and about to choose or do something silly or offensive or ill-advised, my mother used to look at me resignedly and say "Show some discrimination for Heaven's sake!"

It used not to be an all-purpose boo-word.

We should talk about it. Who are these people telling us #nodebate. Who do they think they are. What makes them the boss of us. I'm sick of women being expected to give up their rights so as not to hurt the feelings of the people trampling all over them.

@FemaleAndLearning

There are places where it is not appropriate to be inclusive. For example when we say being inclusive in schools do we really mean that? There are certainly people we want to keep out of schools and this is the same for women only spaces.

Yes. My dc’s school recently had posts about “accepting all sexualities” and I thought ALL ?? I mean I can think of a few that are very much not acceptable in a school ( or anywhere else).

Ditto “ all genders” ....

'Talking about single sex exemptions, though necessary as in the Equality Act, seems a very negative way to be approaching this argument. I have been wondering for a while if we should shout out more about the need for exclusively female spaces. That the default is exclusively female as this make it clearer that any attempt to be 'inclusive' destroys and exclusively female service?'

I think etc we've tried this though?

This place is for women (female)
That discriminates against trans women as TWAW
we have the EA it says services can decide even if there's a gra if it's proportionate etc
Sorry no it means case by case as in person by person. You can't have a blanket ban and the ehrc agree
The ehrc have this wrong

Also, people have had a chat with the funders and they are TWAW so what you gonna do?

Etc etc

Pretty much all orgs including police, NHS etc had quietly changed all their policies years ago so we were on the back foot.

I don't think it will work. Functional male rapists have already been put in women's prisons. Loads of places places have changed the ladies to 'gender neutral'. Girls or women who do sport are told they must share their changing showering etc. And so on.

It's done. It's accepted in loads of orgs including for children that self ID is right and anyone who disagrees is a bigot.

I can't see how saying we want these single sex spaces will help? In the most part they've already gone. Exactly as planned. (Not conspiracy theory, documented. Work started years ago. The changes were to be made quietly).