Ireland..you could not make this up

[purplepizzabunny]

A vociferous campaigner for repeal the 8th campaign, Bernie Linnane, posted just now referring to JK Rowling as an "old trout", and freely admitted she has blocked people from the ARC twitter page, even though that page is a very useful source of info for anyone looking for advice on a termination. So in summary a woman makes derogatory comments about a someone's appearance, and decides that women who do not agree with her are not entitled to access information.

twitter.com/Berlinnaeus/status/1368245476810752006

twitter.com/Berlinnaeus/status/1368247803814805504

[7Days]

Thanks.
Hard to keep it all in line

[irishfeminist]

DCB doesn't fancy us

But is weirdly obsessed with us. Loves having a go at Mumsnet, vile hags that we are.

[7Days]

No one wants to be an irrelevant unsexy middle aged woman..
I'm convinced that's why so many people are jumping on the trans band wagon. Aligning themselves with da yoof because youth is what gets the kudos. It's the same old shite as was ever there.
But life experience counts, and 19 year olds generally dont have it yet, and a mature adult doesn't need their validation.

It's all a bit, How do you do, fellow kids.

[I1give1up]

@FionaMacCool

Exactly Cailleach, I remember voting for marriage equality and all the hoo-haa about #HomeToVote .

I do not recall voting for Gender Self-ID.
If you look at the Wiki page (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HomeToVote) there is no mention of self-ID legislation being voted on. [now that I've drawn attention to it, it may be altered by the monitors, so I screenshotted it ].

Sadly, and I do mean very sadly , the first letter is signed by 2 lecturers in Philosophy, who, one would think, would be very familiar with moral relativism. One would think that they would be able to see and hold in mind, 2 opposing view points at the same time, without condemnation of one.

Archived here, FionaMac

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HomeToVote" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">archive.today/2021.03.18-020044/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HomeToVote

[miri1985]

Letters to the editor about Iseult White's opinion piece

www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/stopping-the-trans-rights-culture-war-1.4513067

The IT seem to be finally discovering that their are differing opinions on this and that all is not hunky dory in the land of self ID

[saltedcaramelchocolate]

@miri1985

Letters to the editor about Iseult White's opinion piece

www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/stopping-the-trans-rights-culture-war-1.4513067

The IT seem to be finally discovering that their are differing opinions on this and that all is not hunky dory in the land of self ID

Those letters are outstanding.
Yes, the Irish Times must have seen in the reaction to O'Tooles piece last week that this is an issue that people are becoming more concerned about. Shouts of transphobia will no longer be enough to frighten people in to silence.

[FionaMacCool]

Yes, good letters in the IT this morning.
Needs to get out to a wider audience now- the IT is still seen as a bit elitist in some corners.

[saltedcaramelchocolate]

Yes, Fiona. I personally would have that view. My parents would have read the Independent or the Examiner. The only article I can recall the Examiner having was an opinion piece by Louise O"Neill denouncing JKR for her transphobia . I don't recall the death and rape threats directed towards JKR being commented on in the article.
The Independent has touched on the topic but nothing in depth.
Journal.ie has a transactivist as a regular contributor.
But I think the Times would be the paper most respected by the woketati, so it is heartening to see the letters and comments that show strong pushback.

[Cailleach1]

The Referendum of 22nd May, 2015 had just two questions in relation to two amendments to the constitution. One was on same sex marriage, and the other was on reducing the age of candidacy for president.

Thirty fourth amendment to the constitution: Marriage may be contracted in accordance with law by two persons without distinction as to their sex. 62.07 YES.

Thirty fifth amendment to the constitution: Every citizen who has reached his thirty-fifth year of age is eligible for election to the office of President. 73.06% NO. (it had proposed to reduce the age from 35 to 18).

Handy information booklet and all by the referendum commission:
www.fedvol.ie/_fileupload/Easy%20to%20read/RefCom_Indepedent%20Guide_DSI_FINAL.pdf

Self-ID wasn't part of the referendum questions. The Gender Recognition Act was passed by the Irish Government on July 15th 2015. Not by popular vote.

womansplaceuk.org/2020/07/13/gender-recognition-ireland/

[Cailleach1]

Maybe O'Toole was a secret saboteur.
The question on same sex marriage in the referendum had as much to do with self-id as the question on the lowering of the age for presidential candidates. Nothing.

[irishfeminist]

O'Toole hasn't even lived in Ireland for a decade so it's mystifying that she's called on to offer her opinion on how self-id is going. Her feminism has something to do with not shaving her armpits because no-one ever did that before.

[XXSex]

Is that nearly every day different people (mostly women?) have given insightful opinions on this awful law that was snuck in under the radar?

[FionaMacCool]

Cailleach that's fantastic detectiving.

Going on what TRAs state on Twitter etc, I though self-ID had been little subsection of the same-sex marriage referendum. And that I hadn't paid enough attention (not that that's an excuse- if that had happened, the Referendum Commission would be on the hook for not correctly informing people).

I think I am as well if not better informed on this topic, than most people in my personal circle.
So, if I have made that mistake, where did that come from?
Mis-information.
By whom?

[Cailleach1]

I have to correct the age I stated in the second referendum! The proposed reduced age was 21, not 18. Still No though! Also, still in the booklet.

[Cailleach1]

Actually, I need a coffee. I completely fluffed the presidential question.

It was: (in English) Every citizen who has reached the age of twenty-one years is eligible for election to the office of President.

Off for caffeine!

[3timeslucky]

@FionaMacCool

Cailleach that's fantastic detectiving.

Going on what TRAs state on Twitter etc, I though self-ID had been little subsection of the same-sex marriage referendum. And that I hadn't paid enough attention (not that that's an excuse- if that had happened, the Referendum Commission would be on the hook for not correctly informing people).

I think I am as well if not better informed on this topic, than most people in my personal circle.
So, if I have made that mistake, where did that come from?
Mis-information.
By whom?

That's interesting. I hadn't realised people thought there was something we voted on. To be led to believe that suggests serious dishonesty at play.

The false equation to me (and one I think the government took) was that if people were ok with ME then they were clearly ok with all things "progressive" and sure isn't the T part of the LBG family so isn't it all the same thing. Another example of the lack of thought, insight, interest and intelligence of our elected representative.

[Annasgirl]

I think the article by Iseult was an attempt to "show the other side" but Iseult is not the other side - she supports self ID and she supports drugs for children. God, I can't even fathom how she could be called a TERF. Just shows, you can never be pure enough when you go down the purity spiral.

I still think the IT need to allow the women who organised the conference the right to reply. Iseult's piece does not count as a right to reply.

[saltedcaramelchocolate]

Iseult has always said the she supported Self ID. But she does appear to understand the GC side.
Self ID does not accept that women have a right to say no therfore GC women are transphobic. They must accept that any man that declares themselves a woman IS one.
I can't see any middle ground. Third spaces do not validate trans identity and validation is very very important to Trans activists. I would be interested to see if Iseult has any solutions.

[Cailleach1]

I read something that was interesting. It stated by the people who pushed for the GRA. It talked about the sovereignty of the transgender person to identify themselves. That is fine and nobody cares much how someone identifies themselves if it does not adversely impact on someone else. However, laws were changed without the consent of the people whom they would would most adversely impact. There was no assessment of impact and certainly no mention of the rights of others. That is tyranny. Male bodies are male bodies irrespective of how they identify. And if one male body, who doesn't pay his tv licence is put in jail and not considered suitable for the women's prison because he hasn't filled out an A4 form, who the heck thinks a rapist is suitable for the women's prison.

-Male sex offenders taken off the streets and sent to prison because they are dangerous. But then trap vulnerable women, who cannot escape, in with them.

-Safeguarding for other males, but looky here and fill in an A4 form and you have your big glaring loophole. I don't think the recommendations from all those abuse tribunals said you improve safety by allowing people to just identify themselves out of safeguards.

But of course the mainly male Dáil, many of whom are now also happy to screw women over in relation to relation to the Mother and Baby home tribunal, didn't give a f•ck about women. Waiting for survivors to die.

There were 15% women TD's in that Dáil. Is Iraq higher? No wonder things like affordable childcare provision (which affect women's ability to engage in public life) and other issues, that skew the experience of one sex in relation to another, are not addressed.

Look, a 25% quota for women in Iraq's parliament. And progressive Ireland has 15% in that 'what men want, men get have' Dáil.

www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/women-mps-the-iraqi-parliament

[Cailleach1]

Sex was redefined at the behest of a self interested lobby group.

[3timeslucky]

@Annasgirl, agree completely.

It is very hard to see middle ground and solutions for those who believe that biological sex can be changed. Unless we can talk in terms of immutable biological sex as totally distinct from gender identity I don't know how we move forward. Our situation (the Irish situation) is particularly muddied by use of the two terms interchangeably with no clarity or definition of gender (and no sex based protections as a result).

I find it really difficult to understand how anyone can seek trans acceptance and support and in parallel try to work a system where we're supposed to pretend that we can change sex. Surely the trans experience is rooted in the reality of their biological sex and the difference between it and the gender identity they wish to adopt? I think it is so important that both are recorded (shout out to the ONS!) You cannot develop appropriate health services for trans people either nationally or individually if you don't record and acknowledge the birth sex of the people and the scale of interventions they've undergone. These are key to appropriate health care. Similarly you can't develop appropriate health services for the rest of the population if you don't accurately record sex. Same applies to prison services, refuges, specialised mental health services etc etc

I'm all about reality, facing up to it, acknowledging it and working with it and through it. I can't see a way forward without doing that.

Surely trans people are proud of who they are, of their experiences and their life journeys? Why then would they want the world to pretend they're not trans?

So yes third spaces are the obvious solution to changing rooms, bathrooms, prisons, refuges, sleeping spaces etc. Outside of those physical spaces, why wouldn't trans people be looking for representation in public life (and business and the arts etc etc) as trans people, rather than pretending that they're representing women?

I realise these are rhetorical questions and a reflection of my bafflement.

[3timeslucky]

@Cailleach1, do you think that if there had been more women the debate would have been there? I don't see that our female representatives have been any more clued in on this that their male counterparts. Did any of those 15% raise any red flags?

I'm not dismissing the poor representation of women. It is a huge problem. But on this issue I'm just not sure that they paid any more attention, or showed any more intelligence than their male counterparts.

I am happy to be told otherwise if there are women TDs who were on the ball.

[miri1985]

Bloody hell, do they not have anything better to be doing, Josepha Madigan (Minister for State for Special Education and Inclusion) is trying to get the Kerryman newspaper to rebrand

"It is about equality, she said, not about emasculating men, adding that a citizens assembly should examine the words that we use as a society."

[miri1985]

Sorry forgot link www.rte.ie/news/munster/2021/0318/1204721-kerryman-newspaper/

[3timeslucky]

FFS.