Introducing yourself by name and pronouns

[FlatteredFool]

I started an online course last week. It will be fun I thought. How wrong was I on that but I had my first, real-life experience of pronouns being a thing. The facilitator introduced herself by name followed by "and my pronouns are she/her" and my face was because it speaks for me without any filter or conscious thought. We were then invited to introduce ourselves if we wanted to. I was worried I'd have to give my pronouns if I did so I kept quiet. This is perhaps the norm now but it struck me as very weird especially as the course is run by a local Women’s centre off the back of the Freedom Programme where our experiences of abuse are due to our sex.

Dd has a student in her school who identifies as a helicopter. Seriously. Are her pronouns ?? Good for her as it shows the madness for what it is. DD has been called transphobic for saying I respect everyone no matter what they identify as but you can't change sex. She really struggles to do the mental gymnastics of calling a girl they/them when she is presented with a very female body. Dd is hopefully being assessed for ASD as am I and we both struggle so much with falsehoods and are sticklers for rules so I don't think we will ever be able to state that someone is the opposite of what they are. It's the same as trying to say 10-5=3. Or that the sun is actually the moon or cold. It doesn't compute as it goes against all logic and facts.

Oh and then on a TA course when looking at stages of child development the PowerPoint included gender as an area of development. I queried what she meant by gender as there are so many genders and got a slightly embarrassed look and a description of make and female sexes so I got her to clarify that actually she meant sex. When I write my assignment I might highlight the issues there because I'll be damned if I discuss puberty in terms of gender when it should be sex.

When will the madness stop??

Thank you for querying on your TA course. I bet there were a bunch of other people who were too afraid to say exactly what you did out loud,

I was at a lecture last night that was held in person and live streamed. The 3 presenters had to ‘self describe’ in line with a new policy. The man didn’t mention he was a man, said something like wearing glasses and grey sweater. One woman described herself as a woman a rattled on in detail about her clothes. The other woman described herself as cis-gender and gave her pronouns.

It was cringeworthy.

If anyone pushes you to give your pronouns, cite Yogyakarta Principle no 6 which says it’s wrong to force anyone to declare their gender.

I find it quite useful at work, it flags up the people I need to be a bit more cautious around.

yep does not compute. throw in propagnosia (face blindness) how the hell are you supposed to remember the male looking person in front of you wants to be she, or which female bodies are they /thems as they do tend to look all the same unless they always wear distinctive glasses or something that does not change.... people do occasionally emerge from the sameness, but put them out of context and they disappear again.
hope the assessment goes well for both of you. it is hard work to get through..

What was the lecture about? How could any of that be relevant?

The self-description is relevant for blind or low vision attendees. It increases accessibility.

Thanks- that makes sense so at DifficultBloodyWoman's lecture the first 2 speakers were giving useful information but the third wasn't.

I started an online course last week. It will be fun I thought. How wrong was I on that but I had my first, real-life experience of pronouns being a thing. The facilitator introduced herself by name followed by "and my pronouns are she/her" and my face was confusedhmm

Why?
Just let her do herself? Even if it does facilitate a [hmm' lol

Dd has a student in her school who identifies as a helicopter Seriously. Are her pronouns ?? Good for her as it shows the madness for what it is

Really?
Has she told you that herself as sounds like one of those second hand things someone your best friends neighbour's next door niece sounds and the meaning has got lost in translation lol

a that should read

@MissBarbary

Thanks- that makes sense so at DifficultBloodyWoman's lecture the first 2 speakers were giving useful information but the third wasn't.

It was a talk at an art exhibition (Botticelli to Van Gogh, Treasures of the National Gallery, if anyone is interested).

Ironically, the third speaker was actually the first. She was introducing the event and the interlocutor (woman who talked a lot about her clothes). The man was the curator of the exhibition and was participating via zoom.

The self description was, as SenecaFallsRedux said, for vision impaired participants to increase accessibility. But given this was an exhibition of paintings (non tactile art), I am not such how much demand there was for that.

But yeah, cisgender is still not relevant.

identifies as a helicopter

I can't tell if you're trying to be funny or if you genuinely believe this, but this is a well-known 'joke' made by people mocking pronoun use ("I identify as an attack helicopter hurhurhur").

If you don't want to state your pronouns, that's fine. If others find it helpful to do so, that's up to them.

DifficultBloodyWoman: The 3 presenters had to ‘self describe’ in line with a new policy. The man didn’t mention he was a man, said something like wearing glasses and grey sweater. One woman described herself as a woman a rattled on in detail about her clothes. The other woman described herself as cis-gender and gave her pronouns. It was cringeworthy.

My experience of this, as a presenter/panelist, is similar to what SenecaFallsRedux said: we're supposed to describe ourselves so people who are sight-impaired and people who can only hear audio and not see video can visualise us physically. It sounds like the first two people in your example understood the point, and the third did not.

I had this the other day on my course, the lecturer said her pronouns then picked me as first to introduce out of the group and I ignored the pronoun bit, then everyone else did the same, not stating pronouns, group compliance perhaps?

I ignored the pronoun bit

I think that's the way to do it. If called on it, say you're not comfortable drawing attention to your sex, because of unconscious bias.

@turnedthewatersintoblood

I had this the other day on my course, the lecturer said her pronouns then picked me as first to introduce out of the group and I ignored the pronoun bit, then everyone else did the same, not stating pronouns, group compliance perhaps?

I love this! Your subversive act was not quite what the lecturer expected and highly effective!! I bet there were others in the room internally applauding you. And yes group compliance - a well known phenomenon.

@MeltsAway I had not thought of that as an answer, useful one to remember.

I have never been tempted to identify as a helicopter, but I have been tempted if ever asked what I identify as to answer 'European' to make my view on the economic self-harm called Brexit known.

If anyone pushes you to give your pronouns, cite Yogyakarta Principle no 6 which says it’s wrong to force anyone to declare their gender.

I find it quite useful at work, it flags up the people I need to be a bit more cautious around.

Excellent advice, Empress.

People can call me Doyoumind. I was always told that she is the cat's mother and I'm not sure anyone you meet on a virtual course should be talking about you behind your back anyway.

@EmpressWitchDoesntBurn

If anyone pushes you to give your pronouns, cite Yogyakarta Principle no 6 which says it’s wrong to force anyone to declare their gender.

I find it quite useful at work, it flags up the people I need to be a bit more cautious around.

What’s the provenance/ credentials of the Yogyakarta Principle. I agree with it but is it citable/ credible?

Gentle bump as I’d like to know more about the Yogyarta principal
TIA

The Yogyakarta Principles are a sort of human rights charter for LGBT people. They were drawn up in 2006 by a group of lawyers and other interested parties, but they have no legal standing.

They were cited by the Scottish Government in support of their proposal for GRA reform, despite them being simply a wish-list put together by some people who have an interest in LGBT rights.

As a statement of human rights for LGB people, there is nothing wrong with the Yogyakarta principles. It's the way 'and gender identity' has been tagged on to each statement about sexual orientation which is the problem.

Principle 6 is about privacy:
yogyakartaprinciples.org/principle-6/

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogyakarta_Principles

Thank you

on a TA course when looking at stages of child development the PowerPoint included gender as an area of development. I queried what she meant by gender as there are so many genders and got a slightly embarrassed look
😆 😆😆 Possibly the best way you could have pointed out the absurdity of it.

I have two different jobs and for one of them we were all asked to add pronouns to email signatures - I said I would prefer not to and that was fine. In the other job we've all been asked to add pronouns to an internal document and I did that one, partly because we have non-binary colleagues (though I don't think the request has come from them) and I didn't want to appear unsupportive of actual people rather than of an general idea IYSWIM. I'm waiting for the request to add to email sigs next but I may just ignore for as long as poss. I haven't the face to refer to yogyakarta, unfortunately. Half the people I work with don't even know my name, so the need for confirmation of pronouns makes no flipping sense.

@SenecaFallsRedux

The self-description is relevant for blind or low vision attendees. It increases accessibility.

How? I teach in a school which has a VI unit attached. The children don’t need to be told about “pronouns”. They can hear and feel, plus names tend to be a massive clue! “Hello little Freddie, my name’s Mr Jones and I’m your new TA” provides all info. If Mr Jones was a transman who hadn’t used male hormones and still had a female voice, little Freddie would likely tell Mr Jones he “sounds like a lady”. If Mr Jones had told Freddie his pronouns are him/he Freddie would be mightily confused. People with a VI deserve honesty if they are to achieve inclusion. Being presented with conflicting information will do the opposite.