Three fathers now.

[Igneococcus]

Whatever next?
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5dc4f5d8-7b7e-11eb-83b7-5869de54abef?shareToken=bd5e62f29aae305ea21426c3155bc5ab

In terms of surrogacy for every woman who is happily taking part there will be several who are putting themselves and the child at risk because they need the money it brings. It's always a woman at risk never a man.

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman

Birth certificates are a way if showing some details about a person, including their biological origins (in theory, anyway). This is why adopted people are allowed access to their original ones when they become adults.

They are not there to validate adults who want to feel special. Adoption and legal guardianship are options in this situation.

Agree.

Why are marriages involving 3 people not legal?

In some countries polygamy is legal.

In some countries adopted people (including adults) don't get to see their birth certificates, and have a "fake" birth certificate (my DCs have fake birth certificates as they were born abroad). This isn't a model we want to emulate.

@Greenrubber you don’t see a problem because you seem to be under the impression the birth certificate is for the benefit of the parents / adoptive family rather than the child to know who sired and bore them

@Greenrubber

I totally get that there is alot of issues in the world and people need to fight for them!

This case tho just seems like 3 men who wanted kids the mums agreed to it so I don't know what the problem is

If the women wanted to be on the birth certificate and were not allowed then yes I can see an issue it just doesn't seem the case here it seems all parties were willing

So if all the people involved are willing to treat the child like a commodity that makes it ok?

I don't think that's a valid reason for something being ok.

If the women wanted to be on the birth certificate and were not allowed then yes I can see an issue it just doesn't seem the case here it seems all parties were willing

But this is neoliberal, individualised, choice feminism.

What these women have done (and I'm still not sure if this happens more broadly in surrogacy) is surrendered their individual right, but in a way that opens up a legal possibility for women who might not want to make the same choice, but when it becomes normalised there is less reason to object and more to say 'well if that is how it works ...'. And we cannot presume that all choices are good ones or ones that may not be rejected in the future. Also, there is the issue that there is no record of the maternal line on the cert - so no record of the mother or her lineage and any family-related health issues - and there is the obvious problem of now knowing who one's step-siblings are. Maybe not in this case, but if this does become more widespread.

Also, the fact that women are just vessels for others leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Not sure what documents and official records they have in California, but in the U.K. a birth certificate is a copy of information held on a public register. It does not necessarily record legal parents as those can change, but it will certainly record the woman who gave birth as the mother.

I’m not sure what the article means by ‘birth certificate’ but it doesn’t seem to correspond to the U.K. concept of a birth certificate.

Has California really stopped accurately recording births?

Not sure what documents and official records they have in California, but in the U.K. a birth certificate is a copy of information held on a public register. It does not necessarily record legal parents as those can change, but it will certainly record the woman who gave birth as the mother

Ah - see that is what I thought they had removed the women's names from? But maybe not?

But this is neoliberal, individualised, choice feminism.

It's more than that though, because this is not just something along the lines of the prostitution argument where you can say "this is an arrangement between consenting adults".

The most important person in this arrangement is not a consenting adult. The child is the most vulnerable and hence most important party here. Whether all the adults agree about what they're doing to/for the child is irrelevant.

^ Yes, I agree and I went on to say that.

If the women wanted to be on the birth certificate and were not allowed then yes I can see an issue it just doesn't seem the case here it seems all parties were willing

Most people in the U.K. have a short form birth certificate which doesn’t record any parents. (You can apply for either long or short form copies - the short form certificate just usually gives enough information for practical purposes).

However the information held on the register is for the purposes of public record. You might as well ask to identify as being born on a different day as ask for the mother to be excluded.

At least the birth mothers were named in this article. When I read about Tom Daley's son it was as though he and his husband had immaculately conceived the child. No woman was mentioned at all. Repulsive journalism.

So there are three parties.

What happens if the relationship breaks down?

Its bad enough with two parties who have parental rights. With three do we think there will be the same level of problems, less problems or more problems - which pose a risk of psychological harm. Children need stability. Do we think custody disputes between 3 or more parents will be just fine?

If we can have children with 3 people with legal parental responsibility, why not 4 or 20? At what point does it change from being a parent/child to owner/possession relationship? What has happened with communities where children have been raised with 'multiple' parents?

The issue is the more people you throw in the mix, you weaken bonds of responsibility and add layers of not really knowing how you fit in. We know from children who are adopted biology remains a fundamental issue in terms of understanding who they are and where they come from which can not be ignore. Erasing a child's ability to access this information removes something from them.

The needs of the child always come second to the wants of the adults in these situations - and thats the biggest red flag going.

@drspouse

Why are marriages involving 3 people not legal?

In some countries polygamy is legal.

In some countries adopted people (including adults) don't get to see their birth certificates, and have a "fake" birth certificate (my DCs have fake birth certificates as they were born abroad). This isn't a model we want to emulate.

Are they countries well known for women's rights and human rights generally?

Should the uk be aspiring to a culture of polygamy? Really? Is that what you are saying?

it is the child's birth certificate, belonging to them, recording information important to them about them, ie their biological parent. It is not the parents birth certificate.

@BlackeyedSusan

it is the child's birth certificate, belonging to them, recording information important to them about them, ie their biological parent. It is not the parents birth certificate.

Agree with this and similar posts. It is very selfish of the men to have pushed this.

As a PP said, legal guardianship or adoption is the better option if they want parental status.

Interesting how the people posting here and saying it’s not a big deal seem to have zero understanding of what this means legally and to the child themselves to not have a birth mother on their birth certificate and to instead have three men - and what this could imply further down the line to many other children. But then if it’s not bothering them directly why care?

Safeguarding out of the window and minds so open their brains have fallen out.

Every child in the world has the right to have a mother listed on their birth certificate

@Clymene

Every child in the world has the right to have a mother listed on their birth certificate

So true.

Yet there are many who feel the emotional validation of white males is more important. And I find sticking it under the banner of "inclusive to different family set ups" even more distasteful.

It's depressing.

The men adopted the eggs/embryos!
They are the childrens legal gaudians and 2 are the kids biological dads

The child will ask questions I'm sure when they are older and they can't lie about it as its in the news and on the Internet they have to be 100% honest with them

Other posters mentioning when they start relationships later down the road and they need to know the biological mother well would that no be the same for every adopted child? They are able to access that information

There is still many women who refuse to put the biological father on the kids birth certificates. And this is still legal!

No household is the same its definitely not how I would choose to raise a family far from it but the world is getting weirder by the day! At least they have went through the proper channels who are we to judge

You can't adopt an embryo in practical terms, you need a mother to grow it into a baby. You can't just write her out of the picture for your own convenience. It's the ultimate in selfish entitled behaviour.

Other posters mentioning when they start relationships later down the road and they need to know the biological mother well would that no be the same for every adopted child? They are able to access that information

Not necessarily in the US. There is no default right to see a birth certificate and anonymous sperm donations are possible. US and UK approaches to birth and parenting (and women's rights) are very different.

There is still many women who refuse to put the biological father on the kids birth certificates. And this is still legal!

It's a record of a birth. The mother many not know who the father is, and the only people necessarily present at a birth are the mother and child.

The right of gay men to access women's bodies to provide them with progeny is being vociferously defended in the comments...

I despair...

@RedToothBrush not the ones where polygamy is legal. Funnily enough.
The countries with false birth certificates vary widely - even within the US, some states both falsely issue new BCs and don't allow access to original BCs as an adult. This is a big adoptee rights issue by the way. I bet surrogate born adults will be next.