Can anyone help 'break it down' for my DD?

[Psuedoshoes]

Feeling like an awful mother tonight to my DD 11. Can't even remember how the conversation began but felt like it ended in me banging on about women's rights being taken over by ideology and the distinct impression that my DD was disappointed in me. Can anyone help impart the wisdom of the 'break it down' thread but for a recently turned 11 year old?

I wonder if a good place to start would be to discuss why sex has legal recognition in the first place. Maybe ask her to think of some situations where it might be important, and then build on that with other examples. At 11, she likely won't yet have a good understanding of how dangerous the world can be for women, so I'd expect this to take some reasonably in-depth discussion for it to sink in. You could follow that up by asking her whether she thinks gender identity is relevant in those same circumstances, and if so, why. And whether there are any other situations where she thinks gender identity is a more important consideration than sex. Hopefully, in trying to answer these questions, she will come to the conclusion herself that "gender identity" is of no relevance when it comes to the legal protections you've discussed. (Bear in mind I'm no expert on 11-year-olds though, so I might be talking rubbish.)

Let her come to her own conclusions instead of trying to indoctrinate her?

Dont alienate / confuse her with words like ideology etc. I don't think you can do it all in one go, it has to be pockets of info.

Focus on basics she should already know from science; male and female, chromosomes etc. I do think learning about human reproduction and genes and then evolution etc at the science museum in the 80's had a massive impact on my understanding.

Talk about stereotypes; how women and men can do the same jobs. How men and women can wear and like the same stuff. Give examples. But then differences in biology when it comes to child birth, women who have children take time to do this, breastfeeding etc. (That's not really discussed at school.)

Talk about same sex attraction and relationships. In reality, anyone can fall in love with anyone or no one. All the labelling stuff is just a trend.

Referring to stereotypes, you can talk about women who fought to vote, have their own bank account. Get careers. Books on historical women etc.

You could discuss sport definitely. Why are there separate categories?

There's lots of stuff at the moment about how men and women react differently to Coronavirus, due to genes. Women have 1000's of extra genes.

But the basics lie in biology.

Thanks Sybill, really useful.

Alex - apologies, could you please point me to the phrase I used that led you to believe I wanted to 'indoctrinate' her?

Definitely worth looking at and supporting charities for girls here and also elsewhere eg plan international.

Talk about how some women still don't have the rights she does.

I'd add re same sex attraction though, that often a lesbian will know they're only attracted to women like a woman who is heterosexual knows they only like men. And it's important to recognise that. (Depend on her level of understanding of relationships etc.)

Somewhat tongue in cheek, but tell her you no longer identify as her mother, and that she is now to call you .

Is her dad on the scene?

Tricky age. How about talking about her friends parents. How many of the mums work full time? Or are the main carer single mums? (As a kid I thought this was great - time off! But obviously it means they have childcare responsibilities and are not earning their own money, climbing the ladder or getting a pension so are in a more precarious position.) How many of the mums/women she knows are in senior positions? How many in government making decisions?

What sports do women beat men in? What women’s sports are regularly on tv?

Why does she think there are these differences? How do you help make things more equal?

@alexk3

Let her come to her own conclusions instead of trying to indoctrinate her?

This is a great strategy except that I suspect some of the spoutings from young mouths at tea tables around the land are quite hard not to respond to! I've had all kinds of stuff come out randomly from the twenty somethings in my life and because we're an open (and argumentative) family we debate. This would have been no different at 11.

also kids are already being indoctrinated, at school and in the media, to think you can change sex, doing so makes people happier, and biological sex doesn’t matter - all actual nonsense.

I don’t try to tell my kids what to think, I tell them why I think what I think. It’s reasonable for them to hear all the sides of the argument and things that are happening.

I have talked about safety in hospitals, prisons, changing rooms etc, fairness in sport, and how people often change their mind about their sexuality when young and so feeling like they’re in the wrong body can also change.

Also about women’s right and sexism - they know I always bang on about sexism anyway - and why we needed them in the first place. And what gender means in the feminist sense - stereotyped roles that we’re trying to be free of, not make into identities.

I also do listen to them talking and their points. By showing that debate itself and the exchanging of views is welcome and a good thing, you’re encouraging critical thought and the ability to spot logical fallacies.

I also like the race comparison. Race is less biologically distinct and less biologically unequal than sex. Yet what if you’re black and white people start claiming they “know” they are black, wear black face make-up and have facial surgery, start doing stereotyped “black” cultural things as evidence that they;re black, then get a legal certificate that they;re black and can take charge of your action groups, win your awards and grants, and then start claiming they are LITERALLY black, born black and biologically black. If you disagree, or even ask for an explanation, you’re branded a bigot, cancelled and could lose your job. Because trans-black people are terribly oppressed and should never be questioned.

Why isn’t this happening? If it did happen, could it be anything to do with a power struggle and racism? How would you feel if this was you? And if this doesn’t apply because it’s not the same kind of thing at all, why?

This is bang on, herself - I'm wanting to articulate the reasons for my concerns - not force her into my way of thinking. I'm all for open debate, and we've had many over the years!

I'm a single mother who works full time. Her dad is on the scene and we get along great, although we are divorced and him remarried.

You've all given me food for thought for when we reopen the discussion next. The one thing I was trying to get across was that nobody can change sex, and we can't just pretend that we can for the sake of being kind to somebody's feelings.

How has she developed the views she holds thus far? That would be my question. School? The internet?

I think @HerselfIndoors post is great. I was going to say sports, prisons and political representation, as I think they’re clear examples of the unfairnessof including males in the category of women.
Female prisoners have disproportionately been affected by childhood sexual abuse and domestic violence, they are extremely vulnerable and
most have committed minor crimes, even things as petty as not paying TV license. Attacks on them by male prisoners have already happened and they’ve been made to feel uncomfortable by being forced to share cells and showers with males who say they’re women. Look up Greenock prison online for more info.
Sports - look up Laurel Hubbard and Cece Telfer. Telfer was number 375th as a male athlete, transitioned and now is a top woman athlete... These people have Male bodies, male advantage from puberty even if they take hormones and it is unfair on female athletes (as well as unsafe, eg a Rugby).
Politics- look up Emilia Decaudin in New York- a transwoman who became the female representative for her district. Maternity rights, access to birth control, sexism, important issues for women that Decaudin will not have personal experience of (of course she will have experienced discrimination in her own right, but not that of women). Is that fair? Will that help women in her district the most effectively? Why were there meant to be female representatives in the first place? (In fact why are there female prisons and sports too..?)

I bring it up when I come across real life examples ...
yesterday I had to fill in a consent form for the Covid testing at school. I explained how disappointed I was that they had chosen the word gender instead of sex - saying how important it was that they get the language right on a medical form as it could have serious health implications if it was just based on how you identify.
I’ve used times when we were walking home when it was getting dark to talk about staying safe and then discussed why it’s more intimidating for women.
When watching tv I comment when I notice all men doing something with no female voice and why that’s important.
Sometimes the dc roll their eyes sometimes they discuss it but I think rather than have a ‘talk’ it’s (depressingly) easy to find real examples.

I think it is really great that your daughter is beginning to think about feminism and politics. I would be listening to her and trying to understand where she is coming from and encouraging her to continue to question. You can share your views as part of the conversation and gently give another view point. She is 11 and has a long way to go in her understanding , don't shut the conversation down because she is not agreeing with you.

Fully agree with not telling her what to think and just explaining why you disagree.

Most teens do a rebel against the parents thing. So definitely just saying what you think and giving all the well argued reasons why you think that is better.