Amanda Gorman’s Dutch translater sacked for being ‘white and non-binary’

[Angelica789]

Campaigners argued that Marieke Lucas Rijnveld wasn’t a suitable person to translate Amanda Gorman’s latest poetry book into Dutch as they are not black and female, and the author has pulled out as a consequence.

This is interesting to me because if we continue to give such weight to identity above other characteristics, such as skill as a writer, it will affect marginalised groups far more than anyone else, yet these are ones campaigning hardest for identity based policies.

The strangest thing is that, as I understand it, the translator was the author's choice! I translate all sorts of stuff I have no direct experience of because I am a good translator and if I don't understand something I research it or, failing that, ask the client to clarify. My identity has nothing to do with it.

So young black female now not able to sell in the Netherlands... How progressive.

Kazuo Ishiguro has spoken about the restrictions inherent in the current fashion for demonising anyone who dares to write from any point of view but their own. It is highly limiting, and in the end it can only work to the detriment of the most marginalised of voices.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-56208347

Batshit the lot of it. What really bothers me is that real life bread and butter issues of social inequality and you know, boring things like poverty get far less attention than this sort of nonsense that only this teeny, tiny minority of privileged people give a rats ass about. Maybe when we've solved or at least begun to solve the much bigger and real problems all of us have and less privileged groups in particular half, this sort of thing will actually seem not quite so self-indulgent as it does now

[quote MaudTheInvincible]Kazuo Ishiguro has spoken about the restrictions inherent in the current fashion for demonising anyone who dares to write from any point of view but their own. It is highly limiting, and in the end it can only work to the detriment of the most marginalised of voices.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-56208347[/quote]
Indeed, if Kazuo Ishiguro had followed that orthodoxy, we would never have got the wonder that is The Remains of the Day. Or can anyone write about white people?

I just saw an article about Ishiguro in the Times:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5aabbe94-7a80-11eb-823e-250f70612dc4?shareToken=e6d54fe3f04127fef90b985dc979d77a

Who were the "campaigners" here, and who were they claiming to represent?

And, more importantly, why did anyone listen?

Just to check how insane this is - was the translator actually female or not?

"This is interesting to me because if we continue to give such weight to identity above other characteristics, such as skill as a writer, it will affect marginalised groups far more than anyone else, yet these are ones campaigning hardest for identity based policies."

From my experience it'e not marginal groups pushing ID politics its a top down movement being supported by university educated, middle class white folk who want to assuage their guilt. See Coke telling their employees to "be less white."

The ridiculous form of ID politics we have now is actively harming to the fight for equality by those very groups it seeks to represent. Whats the phrase go - no taxation without representation? Maybe I am paraphrasing badly but I think that if the orgs pushing these policies were truly representative they would be told by their marginalised staff how ridiculous it all was.

Marieke is a female name, so I'd presume a woman.

Jacques Brel (we won't go into his treatment of women) had a song about a Marieke. I think his family now say he probably had autism, which of course went undiagnosed at the time.

@NecessaryScene1

Who were the "campaigners" here, and who were they claiming to represent?

And, more importantly, why did anyone listen?

Just to check how insane this is - was the translator actually female or not?

Marieke is someone born female who uses they/them pronouns. Accomplished writer in Dutch in their own right, I believe. I can see why another author would choose them as a translator.

And apparently they aren't good enough according to identity politics.

[quote Igneococcus]I just saw an article about Ishiguro in the Times:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5aabbe94-7a80-11eb-823e-250f70612dc4?shareToken=e6d54fe3f04127fef90b985dc979d77a[/quote]
A brief but good article and some interesting comments below the line. I think a good point made by a few people is that we only get to hear about this kind of thing when it impacts already high-profile people. What we don't get to hear about - unless involved in the publishing industry - is about the stifling culture which prevents some authors from getting published in the first place, which places limits on the creative imagination based not on talent but on identity and which only gives voice to a pretty narrow perspective (ironic considering it's supposed to do the opposite).

Let's face it, the wonderful thing about a skilful storyteller is their ability to conjure believable scenarios and characters out of thin air. A good book transports us through time and place and into circumstances we never dreamt of, while resonating with some deeply understood truth about the human condition we didn't even know we knew about. Most of the arts, visual, musical, literature, performance are there to capture and reflect some aspect of human experience. This search for some idea of purity of identity denies this happens at all. Should no one read a book, or look at a painting, or watch a dance if they don't have exactly the same demographics and experiences as the author, artist, dancer? We consume these things because they broaden our horizons.

These regressive, limited, narrow-minded ideologues can take their wish to impose their beliefs on me and fuck right off.

Would their whiteness have been assuaged if they had the right type of trans identity? If they were amab?

@DJLippy

"This is interesting to me because if we continue to give such weight to identity above other characteristics, such as skill as a writer, it will affect marginalised groups far more than anyone else, yet these are ones campaigning hardest for identity based policies."

From my experience it'e not marginal groups pushing ID politics its a top down movement being supported by university educated, middle class white folk who want to assuage their guilt. See Coke telling their employees to "be less white."

The ridiculous form of ID politics we have now is actively harming to the fight for equality by those very groups it seeks to represent. Whats the phrase go - no taxation without representation? Maybe I am paraphrasing badly but I think that if the orgs pushing these policies were truly representative they would be told by their marginalised staff how ridiculous it all was.

Yes, I agree

Oh law, just shows you should never presume anything. Wiki says 'they' won the 2020 International Booker Prize for the debut novel 'The Discomfort of Evening' . Rijneveld is the first Dutch author to win the prize and only the third Dutch author to be nominate.

It says on wiki that 'they' identify as both male and female. Interestingly from Reformed Church family, in the bible belt area of the Netherlands. I'm surprised the gender woo church had a problem with such a woke profile.

Does anyone have a link for any articles about this case being discussed I'd like to get some more info

Sorry, was so long reading, I cross posted.

@DJLippy

"This is interesting to me because if we continue to give such weight to identity above other characteristics, such as skill as a writer, it will affect marginalised groups far more than anyone else, yet these are ones campaigning hardest for identity based policies."

From my experience it'e not marginal groups pushing ID politics its a top down movement being supported by university educated, middle class white folk who want to assuage their guilt. See Coke telling their employees to "be less white."

The ridiculous form of ID politics we have now is actively harming to the fight for equality by those very groups it seeks to represent. Whats the phrase go - no taxation without representation? Maybe I am paraphrasing badly but I think that if the orgs pushing these policies were truly representative they would be told by their marginalised staff how ridiculous it all was.

Totally agree, we see similar here in Ireland when it comes to things like challenging the use of Catholic religious symbols (including the inevitable cribs), having the Angelus on national broadcaster every day, etc. This is often supposed to be for the benefit of people from other religions but in my experience they are far more devout and respectful of other peoples religious practices and rarely have a problem with things and I'm sure in any case would prefer a focus on bread and butter issues. It is the native university educated uber-liberals who usually make a song and dance about things. By the way, I am all for cultural change and a gradual shift away from the unthinking cultural Catholicism of Ireland but that should be done at a pace that is set and led by the majority and not bullied into existence.

@MaudTheInvincible

Let's face it, the wonderful thing about a skilful storyteller is their ability to conjure believable scenarios and characters out of thin air. A good book transports us through time and place and into circumstances we never dreamt of, while resonating with some deeply understood truth about the human condition we didn't even know we knew about. Most of the arts, visual, musical, literature, performance are there to capture and reflect some aspect of human experience. This search for some idea of purity of identity denies this happens at all. Should no one read a book, or look at a painting, or watch a dance if they don't have exactly the same demographics and experiences as the author, artist, dancer? We consume these things because they broaden our horizons.

These regressive, limited, narrow-minded ideologues can take their wish to impose their beliefs on me and fuck right off.

This is so beautifully put. And an example of how a 'fuck off' in just the right place is a thing of beauty also

Well, maybe they even have a problem with the translation of works by Amanda Gorman. Was AG AMAB? If not, maybe the gender woo church don't think AG should be translated at all.

Interesting how those people born of a particular sex can't win, isn't it?

Marieke has been condemned for not being female (but they are!) for crying out loud, because they identified out of womanhood and go by they/them in English. (Whatever that means im Dutch.)

If Marieke hadn't made that announcement, then they would be that worst of all things, "a cis woman" and would have got condemned for cis privilege at some other point.

By the way, Amanda Gorman is 22/23. Marieke Lucas Rijnveld is 29, according to wikipedia. Do you think anyone has specified the exact age range from which they'll let Amanda Gorman and her publishers pick?

In Dutch.

nos.nl/artikel/2370409-marieke-lucas-rijneveld-geeft-vertaalopdracht-voor-gedicht-amanda-gorman-terug.html

Marieke Lucas Rijneveld returns translation assignment for poem Amanda Gorman

This is 'their' twitter.

twitter.com/MLRijneveld/status/1365293135996325895

@DJLippy

"This is interesting to me because if we continue to give such weight to identity above other characteristics, such as skill as a writer, it will affect marginalised groups far more than anyone else, yet these are ones campaigning hardest for identity based policies."

From my experience it'e not marginal groups pushing ID politics its a top down movement being supported by university educated, middle class white folk who want to assuage their guilt. See Coke telling their employees to "be less white."

The ridiculous form of ID politics we have now is actively harming to the fight for equality by those very groups it seeks to represent. Whats the phrase go - no taxation without representation? Maybe I am paraphrasing badly but I think that if the orgs pushing these policies were truly representative they would be told by their marginalised staff how ridiculous it all was.

Luxury beliefs and liberal narcissism innit.

It's no accident that the more advantaged in economic terms absolutely love this shit because it means the focus moves from their huge privilege due to wealth and/or class and is directed instead to race/sex/sexuality etc. Same for institutions and corporations.

There can be lots of performative handwringing and focus on the importance of identity, but nothing actually shifts to help the most disadvantaged and the economic status quo is maintained.

"Luxury beliefs and liberal narcissism innit.

It's no accident that the more advantaged in economic terms absolutely love this shit because it means the focus moves from their huge privilege due to wealth and/or class and is directed instead to race/sex/sexuality etc. Same for institutions and corporations.

There can be lots of performative handwringing and focus on the importance of identity, but nothing actually shifts to help the most disadvantaged and the economic status quo is maintained."

You've nailed it. Plus these culture wars, identity politics etc are so much more fun than the boring work of bringing about real social change and progress around the key issues that actually matter most like jobs, housing, training, childcare. To have the luxury of focusing on these very niche issues in the lofty worlds of poetry and the like is a sure sign that people don't have, and never have had to worry about having their basic needs met. They like things just how they are thanks, just with more diverse cultural products and signifiers like food, music, books etc

I have to admit, I was actually surprised at her non binary identity actually being a liability for once. I remember not too long ago a non-binary author was shortlisted for a woman only fiction award, and of course she was quite happy to be identified as a woman so long as a prize was up for grabs.In my experience, non-binary people expect full inclusion in women's spaces - there was a piece posted here a while ago about a non-binary mother explaining why she was entitled to join women only mothering groups.