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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Self ID State of Play in Germany?

44 replies

AngelaMerkelEyeRoll · 28/02/2021 21:06

Is anyone here able to bring me up to speed on self ID in Germany? There appears to have been a political push towards it in 2020. I can't work out what exactly is going on and who the main players are. It all looks very reminiscent of the UK three years ago. Does anyone have any links or insight?

Are there any women's groups campaigning against it? For various outing reasons I'd be interested in getting involved.

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Igneococcus · 07/03/2021 18:14

I can only see the first bit sadly.
I'm always amused how people write really hostile letters/emails but maintain the formal "Sie" throughout.

saynotofondant · 07/03/2021 20:27

There was an article in the FAZ the other month “Die Überwindung des Fleisches“. FAZ is a socially pretty conservative newspaper. What especially surprised me was that the article went into the split in the feminist movement and transhumanism, rather than just the impact on children experiencing gender dysphoria.

The (unofficial) translation is available in full on another feminist forum. It’s probably not allowed to post the whole thing here, right? If you want to find the whole thing, just search for a quote from the translation in “” and the search engine will probably find it.

Here are some choice quotes:

The overcoming of the flesh

The transgender movement wants to legally abolish the physical sex: Silence about risks and side effects By Thomas Thiel

Is gender feminist? This is a controversial issue in the women's movement. Those who declare the term woman to be a "mere" social construct can no longer fight for women's rights, say opponents. Gender advocates, on the other hand, see women only as a transitional phenomenon on the way to fluid gender. Gender does not have to be feminist, Judith Butler, the patron saint of the gender movement, has already said. Butler is concerned with the confusion of gender roles. In contrast to the social sex (gender), the physical sex (sex) should not play a role.

Transgender activists around the world are currently making efforts to anchor the separation of gender and body in national laws. They have already succeeded in Norway and Argentina, but in the United States the corresponding amendment, the Equality Act, has yet to receive the Senate's blessing. In its strategy paper "Adults only?" the international transgender association Iglyo names the goal of its efforts: Gender transition should become a simple speech act. Where it is associated with surgical and hormonal interventions, medical and legal hurdles are to be removed, especially for children and adolescents. Minors should be able to change sex as early and spontaneously as possible - without a medical report, an adjustment period and parental consent. The magic word is self-determination. To each his or her desired gender.

In this country, the FDP and the Greens have presented drafts for a self-determination law that for long stretches seem as if they were written by the activists themselves. At the age of fourteen, everyone should be able to decide annually whether they are legally considered a man or a woman. Physical aspects play no role in this. The declaration at the registry office is sufficient.

Women's associations such as the German section of the Women's Human Rights Campaign, which see "trans" and "gender" as an anti-feminist movement, are up in arms against the amendment, which, they warn, would take away the basis for protecting women from violence and discrimination. Men transformed into women purely by language could sneak into restrooms and collective showers, women's prisons or women's shelters, the very places where women seek refuge from men. Any form of women's advancement would become obsolete if a man could redefine himself as a woman, from a supervisory board member to a female supervisory board member, in one sentence. And how many female Olympic participants would there still be if men were able to infiltrate their competition?

...

saynotofondant · 07/03/2021 20:29

Experiments with children

The Iglyo paper openly states the goal of "demedicalizing" the campaign, that is, to conceal the medical risks and consequences. The change of gender is not supposed to appear as a painful and risky intervention followed by follow-up surgeries and lifelong hormone treatment, but as wish fulfillment without physical and psychological consequences. Preliminary work is done by brochures distributed in schools and kindergartens, which encourage children to change sex, for example, with the gimmicky claim that men can also bear children.

According to the German draft laws, a child should decide for itself - without medical consultation and parental consent - on hormonal sex change when it reaches the age of fourteen, i.e. before the end of puberty and the physical maturation process. Medical associations doubt that the child is capable of making this decision before it has overcome the emotional turmoil of puberty and completed the physical maturation process, especially since it no longer needs to be informed about this.

A risky, even dangerous step. According to a British study, the hormonal change of gender almost always leads to gender surgery later on (98 percent). Children who do not take hormones, on the other hand, give up the desire to change sex ninety percent after puberty, according to long-term studies. In other words, puberty blockers promote the desire to change sex. According to a ruling by the High Court of London, their use is an experimental act on children, which is very likely to be followed by interventions in the child's body, such as the amputation of the breast or penis, which result in the loss of reproductive capacity and a reduction in sexual experience, including anorgasmia. Why do the Greens and FDP silently accept these risks?

The reform plans are taking place against the backdrop of a dramatic increase in sex reassignment surgery. Since 2013, the number of young people who feel they are in the wrong body or want to have their gender surgically changed has increased more than fivefold. Girls are particularly affected. "The expert looks with great concern and deep dismay at the growing number of adolescent girls - who are physically healthy - with age-role conflicts typical of puberty or body image disorders .  .  . who have not only their breasts amputated but also their uterus and ovaries removed at the age of 14, 15, 16," writes child and adolescent psychiatrist Alexander Korte of Ludwig Maximilian University in Munich.

What is a deeply felt desire to change sex and what is fashion is also so difficult to assess because the transgender community uses such aggressive methods to prevent open debate that one has to doubt its liberal character. Critics are overrun with threats and denunciations, publishers are put under pressure to take critical books and unwelcome studies out of their program. Criticism is not directed against substantive arguments, but against the person who is stigmatized as transphobic.

saynotofondant · 07/03/2021 20:32

•Antiquity of the body*

The Iglyo campaign even openly admits to trying to deceive the public about its goals. Hitch your wagon to a popular reform, the strategy paper advises, in order to push through your real goal "under its guise" (!). Under the heading "Avoid excessive reporting," it recommends approaching individual politicians with widely elaborated plans in order to anticipate the formation of opinion. After that, legal sanctions are to be used to prevent criticism of the contentious concept of gender identity. The draft laws of the Greens and FDP come close to this: they provide for sanctions of up to 2,500 euros if a person's former gender is mentioned - even if it is not done with discrediting intent. Now someone who does this with regard to the past is speaking nothing but the truth. A state that criminalizes that is asking its citizens to be silent or to lie. Practices that were reserved for dictatorial regimes are suddenly advocated by Free Democrats.

This is profitable for the still manageable but growing market of gender clinics and biopharmaceutical companies. Transgender is not a grassroots movement, but an economic force. The utopias that follow are exemplified by transwoman Martine Rothblatt, who earns money from gender medicine as CEO of the pharmaceutical company United Therapeutics. "Transgender," writes the self-confessed transhumanist, "is the on-ramp to transcending the flesh. People who refuse to be labeled male or female are the pioneers of a humanity that is not limited by any substrate. There is a line of development from transgender to transhuman."

———
I’ve cut bits out, so that’s not the whole thing. I wasn’t sure of the character limit in posts (new-ish here), so I cut it into three chunks. I hope it doesn’t count as spam!

Daca · 07/03/2021 21:02

This looks like a thorough treatment, and while the FAZ may be conservative, it’s a high quality paper. Good!

AngelaMerkelEyeRoll · 07/03/2021 23:02

That looks like a good article. Thanks for both links. I have them eyeballed for breakfast reading tomorrow.

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Daca · 08/03/2021 14:31

Bit of twitter chatter: apparently the SPD (= German labour party) have come out for self-ID in their manifesto. The German general election is in September.

Igneococcus · 08/03/2021 15:08

Of course the SPD will adopt this. One of my brothers is an SPD politician (state, not country level), I'll talk to him about it, won't make a difference but I'll try.

Maerchentante · 08/03/2021 17:17

I just fear that this will push many voters into the arms of the AfD, they already feel betrayed due to Agenda 2010 introduced during the Schröder years, now trying to be woke will just push more people towards other parties.
Trouble is, I have voting rights in Germany for the general elections in September so might quite a few of you, too. Who the hell am I going to vote for??? I just don't really feel represented anymore.

Igneococcus · 08/03/2021 17:19

I can't vote anymore, I'm out of the country for more than 25 years, but I also wouldn't know who to vote for.

Daca · 11/03/2021 18:52

Difficult. Not sure what the position of Die Linke is, but probably pro-self ID. The only mainstream parties left are CDU/CSU. But if they get into a coalition with the Greens ...

Anyway, interesting blog post here, on IWD and appropriation by TW. Apparently, female bodily functions and VWAG are also fetishised in Germany. Interesting how this crosses borders: mobile.twitter.com/femkritik/status/1369929875566583813

Taswama · 11/03/2021 19:28

Interesting thread. Place marking to read later.
There was a good article in die Zeit a few months ago about the massive increase in girls transitioning and why.

Taswama · 17/01/2022 18:54

Bumping this thread now that there is new government in place.
Does anyone know of any plans on this from the new coalition?

CheeseMmmm · 18/01/2022 06:46

@peak2021

Interesting information. Whilst the TWAW idea should be opposed wherever it comes up, in Germany worth noting that the sauna culture is such that mixed nudity is not unusual, whereas in the UK a woman seeing a naked man other than one they are in a relationship with is rare. This probably weakens the argument about changing rooms as a single gender place, as far as Germany is concerned.
I was going to post about remembering big differences in societal attitudes/ norms etc anyway but this post prompts as well.

German culture is not same as French culture and neither the same as Italian, Swiss, Turkish cultures and also not same as USA, Finnish, Argentinian, Nigerian... And etc.

To compare any is apples and oranges.

CheeseMmmm · 18/01/2022 06:53

Sauna when part of national thing has various norms and firm rules around it.

Different in different places. But all have them.

This idea that if mixed sex sauna then same in different countries. And some kind of whatever goes. Nope.

CheeseMmmm · 18/01/2022 07:16

You can't just say they do it why not here. Doesn't work like that. Not at all.

Germany much more religious, traditional. Social norms strongly enforced by people around.

Not saying no probs. But different.

Plus. England (not even UK), English men well known for 'dressing up as women' at drop of hat. Seen as bizarre peculiarity.

Other country people say. Man would never put 'women's clothes' on and go out in public unless really big reason.

And here everyone says... Erm... Happens all the time!

I wonder if that why such big pushback here, and why other country people find baffling.

Igneococcus · 18/01/2022 07:31

Sauna is a fairly niche thing in Germany, I'm not sure why this is always brought up. It's nowhere near as common as in some Scandinavian countries. I know a lot of people who wouldn't get undressed in front of people of the other sex that they don't know.
I used to shower and change with the mixed sex, just for fun Volleyballteam that I played with after I stopped playing competitively but that is 30 years ago, I knew the men well and there were no mobile phones for taking sneaky pictures. My nieces who are 29 and 33 (SPD voting, university educated, multilingual, not Landpomeranzen) don't share showers with men they don't know, I asked them last time this came up.

Taswama · 18/01/2022 09:54

What is a Landpomeranz @Igneococcus ? Country bunpkin?

Igneococcus · 18/01/2022 10:21

Yes, a country bumpkin.
Did you see the thread by NotEnglish about sex ed teaching in German schools? If not, it meight be of interest to you.

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