Amnesty international

[WarriorN]

By Julie Bindel

An important read.

spectator.us/topic/amnesty-international-travesty-trans-rights-ireland/?fbclid=IwAR3rNgRCKFS50BxNfhH6zw9U_48aqk8eaEogLMZ7rnS0wS7ciaZt5Ou7cM4

I'm not using any logical fallacies and I certainly wouldn't make an accusation without something to back it up with, I'm saying some others in this thread might be if they are making unfounded accusations such as accusing some organisations of "being pimps" or "working with pimps" just because they disagree with the "Nordic model" and have other views.

The selling and buying of sexual services and which model of law is in the best interest of the sex workers is a very complex matter and there is more than one side to the debate. IMO if a large number of people and orgs are advocating for complete decrim (including orgs concerning health, human rights, anti-trafficking, anti-immigration, and many prostitutes themselves) then maybe try to see their reasoning instead of putting your fingers in your ears and saying "lalala you are all pimps!".

@PurpleHoodie

Cailleach1

Thank you for bringing that to our attention.

Purple, the Bro's without Borders bit was hyperbole!

He campaigned for Investigations into clerical child sex abuse. It started with the 'Ferns Inquiry' and Report as this was the diocese in which he had been abused. It was not put on a statutory footing as people agreed to participate. Ironically one of the terms of reference was "To make recommendations for any necessary legislative or regulatory change required to improve child protection". Doubt they meant dismantling of safeguards as now seems to be what Amnesty.ie seems to be campaigning for.

O'Gorman founded a Irish charity organisation 'One in four'. He set it up in England as well. Interesting and hypocritical when he appears so pissed that Irish women may get support from women in the UK. It got a lot of state funding in Ireland and there were murmurs about how much he paid himself as Director when he was appealing for money to prevent it from going under.

It was quite an era of exposing abuses of power and children by the Church (with the State enabling it). Untouchables of the past. O'Gorman has been a very well paid career activist for quite a while. Probably quite self-important as he is used to having a public spot and maybe the ear of the gov't. He was appointed to the Irish Senate by the Progressive Democrats (PD's) for a short while, then failed to get elected when standing for the Dáil. PD's were a liberal but fairly right wing party.

It appears to me he plays a different tune when it applies to women and girls vis a vis the present day untouchables he is elevating, and Amnesty being complicit in tearing down safeguarding. I suspect all activities are probably self-serving. Motivated by his own position and the politics of it. He obviously knows women are relatively unimpowered in Ireland so can shit on them at random. Lets face it - practically an 80% male Dáil (Commons equiv).

My point is, does the policy of Amnesty help pimps. Unquestionably yes.
Does the policy of Amnesty help women leave prostitution? Unquestionably No.
Does the policy of Amnesty normalize women and children (and men) being prostituted?
Unquestionably Yes.
Has Amnesty thrown away their moral voice for the benefit of pimps and at the expense primarily of women? Yes they have.

That is your opinion. Amnesty Int. did consult with a number of sex workers and sex worker groups when deciding what their stance should be on which law model they believed would be best for both consenting sex workers as well as trafficked victims and/or those who needed help to leave.

They have mentioned on their web site that Douglas Fox had "zero input" on their decision to support full decrim.

(For clarification btw, when I say "sex worker" I am referring to an adult who sells sexual services, not "pimps".)

Purple, the Bro's without Borders bit was hyperbole!

I understand. It's actually a great bit of hyperbole, to highlight nasty actions.

It appears to me he plays a different tune when it applies to women and girls vis a vis the present day untouchables he is elevating, and Amnesty being complicit in tearing down safeguarding. I suspect all activities are probably self-serving. Motivated by his own position and the politics of it. He obviously knows women are relatively unimpowered in Ireland so can shit on them at random. Lets face it - practically n 80% male Dáil (Commons equiv)

Yes. Totally understandable why many Irish women will feel this way.

Because certain boys/men in Ireland suffered previously means men can now be cause suffering to girls and women in Ireland?

No.

Just no.

*Number of sex worker groups from various countries and continents just to add.

Maybe they are pro-safety and find this model to be the safest in terms of health and safety?

But there is also plenty of evidence to show that this model reduces safety and restricts human rights, not just for the people who are engaged in sex work, but for those who live and work around them.

Human Rights are broad and usually involve conflict. By taking a side on so many issues (and often a side that isn't defensible, e.g. that sex is irrelevant), they have made their original mission impossible.

Amnesty Int. did consult with a number of sex workers and sex worker groups when deciding what their stance should be on which law model they believed would be best for both consenting sex workers as well as trafficked victims and/or those who needed help to leave.

They didn't have to take any stance.

For clarification btw, when I say "sex worker" I am referring to an adult who sells sexual services, not "pimps".

And the difference is...?

And the difference is...?

I'm not sure I'm following. You want me to explain the difference between a prostitute and a pimp?

@Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow

Has anyone cancelled their subscription and told them why?

Yes. It was shortly before this letter.

Amnesty International was/is supposed to be about prisoners of conscious. Locked up unjustly.

Isn't that how the man and woman on the High Street understands it?

So. When did they change over to human sex trafficking/prostitution champions?

What year did their ethos and mission statement change?

1999?

2006?

2011?

2017?

We need answers.

^...prisoners of conscience...

@MargaritaPie

And the difference is...?

I'm not sure I'm following. You want me to explain the difference between a prostitute and a pimp?

A pimp sells sexual services.

huh?

It's why the man and woman on the street are cancelling their financial to supporting many 'Big' charities.

Because they are taken over and infiltrated by bad un's.

^financial support to....

@MargaritaPie

huh?

You made a distinction between adults who sell sexual services and pimps. Pimps sell sexual services.

Original letter:
gcn.ie/irish-lgbtq-community-stand-irishsolidarit-transphobia-trans-day-remembrance/

Amnesty's response to the Spectator argument.
www.amnesty.ie/trans-rights-are-human-rights/

www.irishtimes.com/opinion/amnesty-has-lost-focus-on-rights-of-prisoners-of-conscience-1.4497378?mode=amp

This is quite good on the path Amnesty had headed down (from focus on prisoners of conscience to becoming a left-wing campaign group).

Thanks 3times.

[quote DadJoke]Original letter:
gcn.ie/irish-lgbtq-community-stand-irishsolidarit-transphobia-trans-day-remembrance/

Amnesty's response to the Spectator argument.
www.amnesty.ie/trans-rights-are-human-rights/[/quote]
Yes, their letter basically explains they have decided to take on the cause of trans rights, but haven’t the foggiest idea about any of the issues involved.

Or about human rights even. The letter is all over the place.

"Pimps sell sexual services."

I think you'll find pimps generally don't offer to give oral sex or whatever in exchange for money (this is what prostitutes or sex workers do). Pimps do things like run brothels, rent rooms to sex workers, make websites (yes, the legal definition of "pimping" is very broad and includes providing any service for prostitutes for payment), driving a sex worker to/from a client etc etc.