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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Does anyone ever have a "are we the baddies"* moment?

662 replies

Menstrualcycledisplayteam · 27/02/2021 21:39

  • it's a Mitchell & Webb sketch, probably on Youtube.

I'm a bit disheartened this week, if I'm honest. I sometimes feel like this is a fight that we're just not going to win. Two main things recently, one personal, one geo-political I suppose.

On the geo-political level, I look across the Pond to the US, where the only people who are saying the same things as us are frigging Rand Paul and Marjorie Taylor Greene, neither of which are people that I associate my politics as being anywhere close to. There is just no bloody way that the Left, my home, will align with us now, given who our "allies" are in the States. They just can't, even those that agree with us will never position themselves as having the same concerns as Marjorie Q-Anon Parkland Taylor Bloody Greene.

The second is personal. I work for a large global organisation in a senior role. We had our Global Leadership "Away Day" a few weeks ago (on Teams, of course) and there was a presentation from some US colleagues on LGBTQ+, being able to bring your whole self to work, that kind of thing, from two gay colleagues, one lesbian one gay. So far, so good - absolutely the right thing for my organisation to be doing. Then they got onto pronouns and how everyone should start every meeting asking what pronouns attendees want to have used and encouraging everyone to put them in our email sign-offs. I'm never going to do that, but I can already see it happening around the organisation (particularly the US, but some of the easily led/want to be noticed over here will soon follow suit).

My husband won't listen to me talk about this sort of stuff anymore - he agrees with me, but says that it is basically like someone saying they "don't agree with all that Black Lives Matter stuff". My best friend works with young people and whilst I've tried to approach it with her very gently, including all of the stats about single sex spaces and how women and children's safety is negatively affected as a result, her reaction is that she gets all of that but she works with children every day who are tortured by their own bodies.

I know that our concerns are justified, I know that women's safety/opportunities are going to be negatively affected but - if I'm completely honest with myself - I just can't see how we're going to stop it. Julie Bindel has a tweet pinned to her feed which is basically that the misogyny at the moment is like a tidal wave and that's how it feels.

I'm not sure why I'm writing this really - certainly not to bring anyone down but there's no-one I can speak to about this in real life. How do you even go about discussing these things when, in my work at least, it would probably get me fired and everyone around me in my personal life has either bought into the nonsense hook line and sinker, or just doesn't want to hear it?

OP posts:
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ArabellaScott · 27/07/2021 18:41

'fifty non-men on a dead-named-chestfeeder's-net
yo ho ho and a bottle of Gin'

Helleofabore · 27/07/2021 19:00

Mmmmm! Gin not rum!!! Another good suggestion for a substitution…

MsMarvellous · 27/07/2021 19:06

@Waitwhat23

What is a pirates favourite letter?

Arrrrrrr?

No. You would think it would be arrr, but 'it's the C

Grin
Mockolate · 27/07/2021 19:55

@BlueberryCheezecake

History will look back on you in the same way it looks back on people who fearmongered about the gays and opposed LGB equality.

@redapplewreath

I'm LGB. I fought against section 28. This is utter bollocks. It is not the same. Gay rights wanted to take nothing from anyone else.

How is it utter bollocks and not the same?
It's completely the same argument, if you fought against section 28 , surely you must see that a little bit?
You say "gay right wanted to take nothing from anyone else"
Can you not see or are you not aware that the right wing argument towards gay rights people WERE saying things like they took away rights from others?
Some still will hold those views.
These aren't my views by the way but some definitely do think that gay rights
eg marriage - takes away the "proper" meaning of marriage Hmm as in man and woman, makes a mockery of etc
Also not wanting children to learn about being gay in schools because they fear that it will be a social contagion and if they know about it or their friends are that means they will want to as well Hmm

You really don't see ANY parallels there?
They're the exact same arguments used against trans people on this board.

CardinalLolzy · 27/07/2021 20:02

People then saying that tangible things were taken away from straight people by gay people were incorrect.

People now saying that tangible things - rights, spaces, safeguarding, etc - are being taken away from people are not incorrect.

Gay people did not demand that a woman's health provider call her bigoted due to wanting a same-sex breast examiner.

Different.

Megasausagehead · 27/07/2021 20:06

There wasn't any evidence that gay men as a class were a risk to anyone. It was based on made up nonsense.

Whereas the sheer weight of evidence that men of all types, including transwomen, are a risk to women.

Megasausagehead · 27/07/2021 20:07

IS OVERWHELMING

FloralBunting · 27/07/2021 20:10

No, they're not. Nothing in equal marriage prevents heterosexuals being able to marry. No one being openly LGB coerces heterosexual people to change the meaning of heterosexuality. Accepting LGB rights never involved lies and medical interventions on children and young people to stop them developing.

Mockolate · 27/07/2021 20:10

I also think people should ask themselves (that's not a literal order to go away and think before anyone reads it as such) just a musing - more along the lines it's the far right who don't agree with LGB, or the T either.
Traditional family set up, as in traditional man and wife marriage, with maybe 2.4 children, (so frown on LGB) and men and women to fit into conservative boxes of what a man should look like and behave and what a woman should look like and behave (so frown on the T as they're not behaving "like they should" )
So yes, it is on the far right "baddies" side if anyone wonders where I was going with this post.
It's all on the same page of thought, even if some are more extreme versions than others.

Megasausagehead · 27/07/2021 20:19

Now that does make me laugh, many GC are LGB FFS

FloralBunting · 27/07/2021 20:20

Fundamental misunderstanding of what the feminist position is, yet again. It is T thinking that blocks men and women into 'traditional roles', and if they don't fit them, lies and suggests there is a problem with the people, not the boxes.

This 'far right' canard is bloody laughable when the T movement is completely based on traditional stereotypes and relies on a whole capitalist commercial set up to promote and sell the lies.

And beyond shite when so many of us are entirely 'non traditional' when it comes to appearance, attitude or role. Jesus, is this seriously the best you can do?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/07/2021 20:21

It's all on the same page of thought

No, it isn't. Hope that clears things up!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 27/07/2021 20:21

Nope! Can't see any similarities.

And all of that has been discussed here pretty thoroughly. Key terms would be:

It Never Happens
Cotton ceiling
Women's prisons
Women's sport
Trans widows
Lack of medical research into various drugs
No platforming
Doxxing, threatening the jobs of women

But you know all of that...

Megasausagehead · 27/07/2021 20:21

It's just so boring isn't it?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/07/2021 20:22

This might help.

Does anyone ever have a "are we the baddies"* moment?
Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/07/2021 20:23

It's about self reflection so how about you try it. Do you ever wonder if you're the baddie? Serious question - in the dark hours before the dawn, any doubts about sterilising children, putting sex offenders in women's jails, bullying anyone who disagrees with you, calling for them to be sacked. No qualms at all?

Quite.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 27/07/2021 20:24

Oh! Give over with the Far Right claptrap too.

Show us some evidence and we can discuss it...

... not holding my breath.

Mockolate · 27/07/2021 20:26

Megasausagehead

Now that does make me laugh, many GC are LGB FFS

So?
I'm sure many are, and I didn't say otherwise.
Surely you must realise that a lot won't be as well.

Helleofabore · 27/07/2021 20:27

Are you honestly trying the 'far right' argument? I thought that you have been on enough threads to know just how absolutely ridiculous it is to try that tactic.

Shall we start posting examples of just who those pushing the trans agenda are aligned with? Do you worry about who those people are that supporters of that agenda are aligned with? Do you ask them if they are worried about the people within their own movement? and not just groups who happen to agree to some aspects of this issue but not on any other issues?

Mockolate · 27/07/2021 20:34

I'm not "trying" anything.
I was just responding to the posts saying about section 28 and that they can see no similarity anywhere.
My post was just saying that actually, yes there are some comparisons.

Megasausagehead · 27/07/2021 20:38

There are some similarities between men and women. They have legs, eyes, skin etc.

BUT THERE ARE IMMENSE DIFFERENCES TOO. Like physical strength, the ability to conceive and carry babies.

Similarities are not equivalence.

Seriously is our education system THIS broken?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/07/2021 20:42

The whole thing is worth a read, but some things jumped out at me from this.

We hear from another trans-identified teen during the panel discussion, Jordan, a 17-year-old FtoM. We also hear fromJordan’s mom, Heidi, who leads a local support group for trans-identified youth and their families.

Heidi—who at several points mentions her strong church affiliation–talks about some of the childhood experiences that convinced her that her daughter was actually her son, including this [4:37]:

When Jordan was about 2 it became clear to me that Jordan likedboy things—you know trucks, video games, violence…when he was about between 2 and 4 I noticed he wouldrip off the pretty little dresses I would put on him. Would go screaming through the houseand would not leave the house until he had on his brother’s big, holey T-shirts. I just thought he was atomboyand that it was aphase. He was driving me nutsbut it was a phase. During this time I worked for a very large church… We are Christians… We were told by everyone around us tomake that kid wear a dress.

Another kid screaming in a dress.

Mom tried to force her kid to wear dresses: check. The kid liked trucks: check. A girl not wanting to wear dresses is ”a phase”: check. Mom didn’t like this (it drove her nuts): check. Mom was involved with a church, whose members wanted her to “make” her child wear a dress.

Could this stuff be any more obvious?

Jordan seems to agree that an aversion to wearing dresses is a key sign of one’s innate gender identity [4:44].

My mom put me in a dress at Easter. [But I] went to church in dirty jeans and a big T-shirt.That was kind of a big signal.

A big signal of what? That Jordan didn’t like dresses, preferred to wear jeans? What is this obsession withdressesthat we see in each and every media story about girls who are “really boys?” When did we step intothis time machine, returning to the turn of the 20thcentury? Even Katherine Hepburn wore pants and eschewed dresses in the 1940s.

Then there’s this from Heidi [4:40]:

[During the elementary school years] I was [putting up] posters of really strong women. You know, like the singer Pink? Oh, this is a real kick-ass girl, you can be like her…when he had a crush on her. It was things like that.

Things like… not wanting a lesbian daughter? This conference took place in 2016,in the San Francisco Bay Area–for decades considered one of the most gay-friendly places in the USA, and the audience tittered at this revelation of Jordan’ssame-sex attraction—as if that were a sign Jordan was actually a boy!

Mom goes on to describe how Jordan was diagnosed with a whole “plethora” of mental health issues, from ADD to bipolar to mood disorders, and concludes that it was being trans that was the root of all these other problems; once Jordan transitioned, everything else cleared up: the self hatred, the self harm, the unhappiness.

This is an increasingly common refrain, and in fact, Ehrensaft at several points in her presentation asserts that “gender is the cure” for an array of other mental health issues. What wedon’tsee, from Ehrensaft or anyone else, is actual evidence that allowing children to “transition” results in improvements in mental health over the long haul. What we are beginning to see in accounts from some people who have detransitioned is thattransition essentially put their other issues on hold for a while—only to re-arise when the initial transition exhilaration began to dissipate.

We haveevidence from several studiesthat gender dysphoria often co-presents with other mental health issues. Ehrensaft and others like her are now turning such research on its head, positing that thecauseof comorbid mental health problems is a child being somehow thwarted in their gender identity.

Returning to the conference, although Jordan’s “gender expression” is not assumed to be the real reason for transition, it is telling that, as always, it isexamples ofhow a person does or does not conform tosex-stereotyped behaviors that are presented as the evidence for being transgender.

And that goes even for babies, according to Ehrensaft. Duringthe audience Q&A, a man asks how one might tell if a pre-verbal one or two-year-old is transgender. Ehrensaft’s answer, delivered with a knowing and confident smile [Clip for this excerpt is here, starting at approx. 2:05-2:06 in main video]:

[Preverbal children] are very action oriented. This is where mirroring is really important. And listening to actions. So let me give you an example.

I have a colleague who is transgender. There is a video of him as a toddler–he was assigned female at birth–tearing barrettes out of then-her hair.And throwing them on the ground. And sobbing.That’s a gender message.

Continues: 4thwavenow.com/2016/09/29/gender-affirmative-therapist-baby-who-hates-barrettes-trans-boy-questioning-sterilization-of-11-year-olds-same-as-denying-cancer-treatment/

RedDogsBeg · 27/07/2021 20:43

Surely you must realise that a lot won't be as well.

and?

Are those who are not LGB not worthy of an opinion as to whether they wish to have their rights to: single sex spaces including refuges, and prisons, single sex sports, same sex hcps, same sex hcps when being examined after reporting rape, same sex rape counsellors, the language they use to describe themselves, removed and destroyed in the pursuance of this ideology?

Are those who are not LGB not worthy of having an opinion about whether children should be placed on drugs and undergo drastic surgery leaving them infertile and destroying their ability to have a fulfilling sex life in future?

The TRA agenda/gender ideology is repressive, regressive, damaging and dangerous.

Mockolate · 27/07/2021 20:43

There are some similarities between men and women. They have legs, eyes, skin etc.

BUT THERE ARE IMMENSE DIFFERENCES TOO. Like physical strength, the ability to conceive and carry babies.

Similarities are not equivalence

Was that to me? If so, have I said otherwise? Confused You seem to be shouting (caps) at something I haven't even said.
So not sure what that little education snipe was all about at the end of it Hmm
My post was just about the similarities between the section 28 arguments and the arguments now, and it's still the same viewpoint it ever was.

Helleofabore · 27/07/2021 20:44

Also not wanting children to learn about being gay in schools because they fear that it will be a social contagion and if they know about it or their friends are that means they will want to as well hmm

And yet, how do you actually explain what many MNers have actually witnessed as teachers, parents or family where entire social groups of teenage girls are declaring themselves trans?

So, you are going to hang your entire 'but whatabout the right wingers' on social contagion? Well .... maybe we could get some actual independent research to disprove this. Wouldn't that be great?

And your first point about the definition of 'marriage' as it fully contained to one aspect of life is NOT equivalent to the definition of woman being changed which affects the length and breadth of female life. Or is that not what you are saying?

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