Does anyone ever have a "are we the baddies"* moment?

[Menstrualcycledisplayteam]

• it's a Mitchell & Webb sketch, probably on Youtube.

I'm a bit disheartened this week, if I'm honest. I sometimes feel like this is a fight that we're just not going to win. Two main things recently, one personal, one geo-political I suppose.

On the geo-political level, I look across the Pond to the US, where the only people who are saying the same things as us are frigging Rand Paul and Marjorie Taylor Greene, neither of which are people that I associate my politics as being anywhere close to. There is just no bloody way that the Left, my home, will align with us now, given who our "allies" are in the States. They just can't, even those that agree with us will never position themselves as having the same concerns as Marjorie Q-Anon Parkland Taylor Bloody Greene.

The second is personal. I work for a large global organisation in a senior role. We had our Global Leadership "Away Day" a few weeks ago (on Teams, of course) and there was a presentation from some US colleagues on LGBTQ+, being able to bring your whole self to work, that kind of thing, from two gay colleagues, one lesbian one gay. So far, so good - absolutely the right thing for my organisation to be doing. Then they got onto pronouns and how everyone should start every meeting asking what pronouns attendees want to have used and encouraging everyone to put them in our email sign-offs. I'm never going to do that, but I can already see it happening around the organisation (particularly the US, but some of the easily led/want to be noticed over here will soon follow suit).

My husband won't listen to me talk about this sort of stuff anymore - he agrees with me, but says that it is basically like someone saying they "don't agree with all that Black Lives Matter stuff". My best friend works with young people and whilst I've tried to approach it with her very gently, including all of the stats about single sex spaces and how women and children's safety is negatively affected as a result, her reaction is that she gets all of that but she works with children every day who are tortured by their own bodies.

I know that our concerns are justified, I know that women's safety/opportunities are going to be negatively affected but - if I'm completely honest with myself - I just can't see how we're going to stop it. Julie Bindel has a tweet pinned to her feed which is basically that the misogyny at the moment is like a tidal wave and that's how it feels.

I'm not sure why I'm writing this really - certainly not to bring anyone down but there's no-one I can speak to about this in real life. How do you even go about discussing these things when, in my work at least, it would probably get me fired and everyone around me in my personal life has either bought into the nonsense hook line and sinker, or just doesn't want to hear it?

Saying someone can’t change their sex is not out of step with mainstream thinking

The idea that it is is laughable. Most people are willing to live and let live. Right until the time they perceive a problem. Polling shows that the majority of the population don't support sex self ID.

Legal sex self ID, as trans organisations lobbied for. They are ok with people saying "I identify as a woman" as long as it doesn't mean too much.

*Obviously barring certain situations around safeguarding or exceptional positions of power or influence. But I’m not going to get into that here.

But really.....perhaps some gender criticals need to have some different gender critical thoughts over what they are really out to preserve? I want for my daughters equal opportunity, not sub servience to an antiquated gender control system with jobs for the boys first.

I don't know any gender critical feminists who want a gender control system with jobs for the boys first. I think anyone who does want that couldn't say they were critical of gender. Not everyone critical of transgender ideology is also gender critical.

I also don't see how transgender ideology smashes gender stereotypes. It reinforces them.

I don't know any gender critical feminists who want a gender control system with jobs for the boys first. I think anyone who does want that couldn't say they were critical of gender.

I'm not sure if this person is uninformed about what gender critical feminists actually think, or they are simply being goady.

Gender ideology absolutely reinforces gender stereotypes. It is not tolerant, it is not open, it is not progressive at all! It is based entirely on forcing boys/girls into regressive male/female gender roles. GC feminists constantly and determinedly fight against those.

If you can’t see that you need to do a lot more thinking.

I actually have come to believe it's positive - as it smashes gender stereptype norms keeping us all down.

Huh? It does the exact opposite.

Whether it be the conservative "women are homemakers" people or the woke "I was born with a gender identity" people. However, it is so stupid and nonsensical that my hope is that it will eventually fall apart.

Just to be clear for pp the gender critical feminist position is neither of those things. There are lots of other people (including many men) who are not gender critical in a feminist sense, but also don't buy into gender identity ideology in the same way they also think water is wet.

Yup - especially when a teenage relative said the issue is the same as it was for gay people decades ago, but then I thought about it again and realised it isn't at all the same. The whole ideology is based on a lie and the abuse and violence is coming from one direction.

From what I can see trans peeps have been around in modern life for fifty years in larger numbers, and there are only the isolated incidents catalogued on deliberate threads on here that incite a feeling that "trans" is a bigger problem then it really is.

I dont' think anyone is saying 'trans is a problem', if they are then report it - that would be the actual definition of transphobia.

Feminists don't care how people choose to present or act, so long as they are not harming other people. My problem is that women are being asked to budge up and allow males into spaces that have been specifically made for females. (Some of them hypothetical spaces, like 'all women' shortlists, which are now allowed to include any male who says he is a woman or non-binary, for example).

Honestly, I still struggle to see the issue and am a fan of "hold the person offending responsible" not a class of people due to their presentation/identity. That smacks too much of a bad history of segregation and discrimination.

In virtually all violent crime, males are the aggressors. We segregate the sexes to protect the sex that is more likely to be on the receiving end of violence.

I actually have come to believe it's positive - as it smashes gender stereptype norms keeping us all down. Why is is the alt right is supporting this so much? Is it to protect women, or is is to protect the patriachy and system of control that the left have a strength in challenging?

How does 'pink = female, long hair and make-up = female' smash any stereotypes?

I want for my daughters equal opportunity, not sub servience to an antiquated gender control system with jobs for the boys first.

And how do you feel about Pips Bunce, who is a man on some days and a woman on others? Pips can have the best of both worlds, including winning awards for 'woman of the year'.

That said, I still have some concerns around the physicality of sport, but am waiting to see how this all evolves. The sports authorities seem best placed to review ranges of ability and physicality and make some rules.

So, you think we do need sex segregation in some cases? That is precisely the gc viewpoint.

perhaps some gender criticals need to have some different gender critical thoughts over what they are really out to preserve?

What do I want to preserve? At least the gains we had made for our daughters in reaching for equal opportunity. From my point of view, that equal opportunity has just been moved further away because now we are being told some males are better women and deserve women’s opportunities in a still sexist society.

I want for my daughters equal opportunity, not sub servience to an antiquated gender control system with jobs for the boys first.

I am not so sure where you got the idea women such as those fighting to uphold women’s rights against the conflicts of another groups are trying to uphold ‘jobs for the boys’.

I think that once you start realizing just how a supposed small minority has already gained what seems like a disproportionate number of the women’s roles in political parties and universities there should be concerns about the future opportunities for our daughters. (and I would love to see the statistics to calm my concerns about this).

These roles have influence over policy and are roles that provide experience for future policy and political roles.

Then when you start seeing the other impacts such as gender balanced boards that are now 75% male , panels for inspiring women into career streams having a disproportionate representation of males who identify as women on them, yes, I am concerned for my daughter’s future.

So, it is NOT just sport. If you think holding up a male who has had a wealth of opportunities that have not been available to women as a successful woman is a great role model for your daughters as busting gender stereotypes, that is great.

I prefer to point my daughter in the direction of females who have achieved. I would prefer my daughter to be represented by a female when policies are discussed and set to ensure they are actually fair and relevant to her needs.

Both groups reject trans ideology but for entirely different and opposing reasons

i'm not at all sure that they are naturally opposed. Both acknowledge in the natural dignity of the female sex, and understand the reasons that single sex provisions are required.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Whether it be the conservative "women are homemakers" people or the woke "I was born with a gender identity" people. However, it is so stupid and nonsensical that my hope is that it will eventually fall apart.

Just to be clear for pp the gender critical feminist position is neither of those things. There are lots of other people (including many men) who are not gender critical in a feminist sense, but also don't buy into gender identity ideology in the same way they also think water is wet.

YY, thanks for articulating what I was struggling with.

---

Maybe it's because I'm getting old, but I still remember the 'stereotypical' feminist and it's almost hilarious that the new stereotype of feminist is someone who wants to preserve gender norms and keep women in the kitchen.

Christians also tend to emphasise the dignity and importance of motherhood...and I think that is something that certain strands of feminism have neglected at times, in favour of pushing for equality as sameness.

I actually have come to believe it's positive - as it smashes gender stereptype norms keeping us all down.

Please explain how?

When the graphics are produced for IWD speakers last years for the FT there was only one person wearing an off the shoulder top with a come hither look. The same person that tells us how to woman better and how to be a better feminist.

Is that busting gender stereotypes? How?

Honestly, I still struggle to see the issue and am a fan of "hold the person offending responsible" not a class of people due to their presentation/identity. That smacks too much of a bad history of segregation and discrimination.

Ok. So therefore we should throw the safeguarding guide away. And allow all facilities where women are vulnerable to be open access to everyone. Because currently the norm is to exclude a whole heap of people based on their sex class, male. And strangely, the crime statistics uphold this! And the same crime statistics also do not show males who identify as women to have the crime rate of women... they more reflect the male stats.

So, if we are willing to remove safeguarding measures for one subset of males (with similar patterns of sex offence crimes), why don’t we do it for all males?

But really.....perhaps some gender criticals need to have some different gender critical thoughts over what they are really out to preserve? I want for my daughters equal opportunity, not sub servience to an antiquated gender control system with jobs for the boys first

What some feminists do share in common with Christians is an understanding of the natural dignity of sex, and of motherhood in particular. A recognition that there are some general differences between the sexes - as constructed via DNA, hormones and physical structure and function.

Many women do want to stay at home when their children are young; do enjoy home-making......more so than their male partners; and feel a more instinctive fierceness when it comes to their children - born out of their natural bond with their child - rendered through biology and the hormonal surge that follows childbirth.

There is, and can be, dignity in fulfilling a stereotypical 'female/feminine role.

As well as wanting opportunities for girls to express their individual talents and skills, there also needs to be a place for girls to want to be mothers and homemakers too, without them feeling that they are somehow useless or letting the side down.

Uhm...

The male class overwhelmingly instigates violent and sexual crimes against the female class.

That is why said protections are in place.

The male class overwhelmingly instigates violent and sexual crimes against the female class.

Well, that's one of the "gender stereotypes" they want to break. They want that to not be acknowledged.

Yes quite. It’s easy enough to see why they’re working so hard to try to erase accurate statistics based on sex.

I have moments when I wonder this. I wrote a very long document for a friend asking about this. He said he 'heard JK Rowling had taken a bit of a beating', but knew nothing else about it, so I gave him my views... that was 3 weeks ago and I have had radio silence since. I think maybe we aren't friends anymore.

It does make me wonder.

But what always strikes me is the bad faith lack of discussion from the other side that makes me ask myself what I'm missing. The pushback is so huge and disproportionate.

I say: 'I'm not sure putting self ID into law is a good idea for either women or trans people themselves'

They say 'you hate trans people and aren't giving us the right to exist.'

It's not a conversation on the same terms.

I tie myself up with the LGB issue, because I think that's where a lot of this over-zealous fighting for Trans Rights comes from. So many institutions were caught on the wrong side of history there. Homophobia was rife in this country - and violent at times. It took a long time for the community to reach the acceptance they have today.

So it's as if the trans rights issue is suddenly a way to make amends for systemic bigotry from the past. But there is no thought going into it beyond 'we will do better this time.'

I am sometimes half persuaded when I hear - as a poster said above - 'this is just like Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.' Because it's a sensitive issue and that thinking about LGB people makes me angry. Along with the 'Gay people are predators.'

It is true that on the face of it, GC concerns DO look the same and I can see how to a kind observer, they look identical. I am hyper sensitive about it.

One of the differences I note is that coming out as trans is nothing like coming out as gay 20/30 years ago.
My brother is gay and, although there were always signs, he didn't come out until his 20s. I know he felt shame and embarrassment and worried how others would view him. He worried about how it would effect him professionally and personally. Who would shun him or sideline him?

Yet coming out as Trans seems to be something lauded and celebrated. Companies leap all over themselves to use trans employees as PR and political parties select them to increase their inclusive credentials. Where is the same detriment? They talk about fear of discrimination, but is discrimination actually happening to them? If it is, why are so many teenage girls doing this in whole peer groups? It must be more than Ok and accepted. It seems to be rewarded in some way. It isn't the same.

My version of 'be kind' has always involved treating individuals with respect and tolerance. I will call a trans woman 'she' and by their preferred name. I would never say anything like 'but you're just a man in a dress' because it is needlessly unkind.

But put a gun to my head and tell me to say that that person has ACTUALLY changed sex and I can't do it. I can't because it's not true, I can treat that person how they want to be treated to make them comfortable, but I can't change how I feel about what a woman is.

Is that like saying 'gay people shouldn't exist. It's a lifestyle choice and they are perverts.'? I don't believe so. But I will constantly question it.

I think the thing that stands out is that many of us GC women actively want to find a solution. Everyone seems to have a different boundary line on this issue.

Some think women's spaces are fine to be inclusive, but sports is a no go, for others it is prisons, for others refuges, for many not changing rooms...

So there is usually some degree of realisation that complete TWAW belief in all contexts and all situations isn't desirable. So where do we draw a legal line?

And then it's back to the point that we already drew that line a long time ago. No men in women's spaces, sports, prisons, refuges, political women's positions...any of it. We did it already and we aren't trying to reduce anyone's rights or sideline anyone, we are just holding fast to the rights we already have.

It is saying - pretty much as JK did 'we have fought for this. We will support you to fight what you need too, but it is not what we already have. What you need is different'

I can't see it as a hateful position to hold.

am a fan of "hold the person offending responsible" not a class of people

I see this argument a lot lately. It seems incredibly naive. Plus in this current era where rape and assault is so poorly prosecuted, why do you think lowering safeguarding measures or lowering our children’s boundaries is a good thing?

The male class overwhelmingly instigates violent and sexual crimes against the female class

Yes, and some of that is down not just to social conditioning, but also down to biology. Males do present far more at certain ends of certain spectrums; just as females present more at others.
There are some natural tendencies - which can be ameliorated or civilised through socialisation.

I want for my daughters equal opportunity, not sub servience to an antiquated gender control system with jobs for the boys first.

But this is exactly what the gender ideology is perpetuating!

When you talk about equality for your daughters I assume you mean equal treatment for them when compared to men?

This ideology allows a man who has grown up with all the automatic societal and professional advantages that men enjoy - to then transition and be counted as a woman.

The reason why your daughters still need to seek equality is because society treats women less favourably based on their sex. Do you think having people raised with all male advantages and no female based disadvantages being included in the same category as your daughters will help or hinder their quest for equality?

Do you think that having executives who wait until they are at the top of their career and earning potential before transitioning and having their salary and position counted in the female stats is going to expose or conceal the sex pay gap?

We are hearing reports that suddenly, over the last few years, the representation of women in senior boards has increased. I can think of several late transitioning top executives off the top of my head - it won’t take many of them to skew the numbers noticeably.

You may have the opinion that there aren’t enough late transitioners to make a real difference but we have no way of knowing either way - it is being deliberately kept under the radar and we are prevented from assessing the impact on women. This is not proof that it is not happening.

You mention a pps reference to ‘future problems’ that may be suffered by women but if you actually read the discussions in the Feminist boards you will see that there is ample evidence of actual harms being done to actual women right now!!

Why do you think the Ministry of Justice are in the middle of a court case brought by a women who was raped while imprisoned with a TW?

From what I can see trans peeps have been around in modern life for fifty years in larger numbers, and there are only the isolated incidents catalogued on deliberate threads on here that incite a feeling that "trans" is a bigger problem then it really is

Look up Katie Dolotowskis 10 and 12 year old victims, and Karen White’s victims and Karen Jones victim’s (one was female) and the many female victims of rape and sexual assault carried out either by men pretending to be tw to access their victims or by ‘genuine’ (we still haven’t found the definition by which to measure genuine) tw which are sexually violent.

Please don’t be so callous and dismissive of women and girls that have been harmed by this. How many rapes and sexual assaults do you think there can be before you deem it to be too many? How many sexual assaults at knifepoint is too many for Katie Dolotowski’s 10 year old victim?

Your timescales are totally wrong. The ‘trans umbrella’ was drastically expanded to include cross dressers, drag queens etc only recently. Prior to that it was a tiny number of actual transsexuals (less than 5000), many of whom are very aware of their birth sex and not making women feel in and wouldn’t dream of using female only facilities. Some are actually campaigning for women’s rights on this matter. The recent and dramatic increase in the number of male born people demanding (and being misled by Stonewall) access into women’s spaces is the problem.

Single sex spaces and provisions recognise the inherent biological vulnerabilities of the female sex - and these vulnerabilities are instinctively felt and registered, even if not consciously.

If an individual woman wants to invite an individual man into her private space, then she is free to do so - certainly in western culture; but that is not the same as all men having free access to women's spaces. These spaces and provisions act as safeguards. they are not a comment on any one individual in particular.