Matthew Paris in The Times

[partystress]

As well as Janice Turner’s brilliant piece on refuges, MP in his Times column today has entered the fray, in a quiet and I hope helpful way. Can’t link or do share tokens, but his final paragraph includes:

But we should nail early the misconception that all we’re doing is respecting “what people really are”.... It may not be a shirking, but a shouldering of responsibility, to ask a child to wait.

Worth a read. And will be interesting to see what level of abuse he gets, as a gay man writing that there may be a peer pressure element to the rise in children identifying as trans.

Was it Matthew Parris who wrote something a while back about stepping away from Stonewall or am I confused? He has touched on the issue before, I think.

Here you go

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/its-clear-our-sexuality-isnt-set-in-stone-8zp9ldf5h?shareToken=f8aa69c792893556326a4cbd39f0c55c

I haven't seen this article, but I agree 100% with your quotation It may not be a shirking, but a shouldering of responsibility, to ask a child to wait .

When I was asked why I wouldn't be 'kind' to a (hypothetical) child who was upset by their gender, calling them by a different name and referring to them as if they were a different sex, while they tried out living as the opposite sex, my reply was "How is it kind to lie to a child and pretend that they can have what will never be available to them?"

@BraveBananaBadge

Was it Matthew Parris who wrote something a while back about stepping away from Stonewall or am I confused? He has touched on the issue before, I think.

He wrote something which suggested that while maybe he hadn't yet quite seen the light, he was becoming uneasily aware of the darkness.

The generations were “Baby Boomers” (55-75); “Generation X” (41-54); “Millennials” (25-40); and “Generation Z” (under 25).
...
Brace yourself for the British result. Just over half (54 per cent) of the youngest generation said they were only attracted to the opposite sex. The older the respondents got, the less gay they declared themselves to be. The figure for Millennials was 60 per cent exclusively heterosexual; Generation X 76 per cent; and Baby Boomers 84 per cent.

I don't believe that nearly half of under 25s are gay or bisexual. (I'm not interested in the more exotic sexualities.)

'We shall have many more gay and bisexual people in the century ahead. That’s fine. And perhaps many more trans people too. Again, fine. But we should nail early the misconception that all we’re doing is respecting “what people really are”. By social pressure, classroom pressure, media pressure and, yes, through mere fashion, we are moulding soft clay, not discovering some great shard of internal granite children are born with. The younger the person, the softer the clay. It may not be a shirking but a shouldering of responsibility, to ask a child to wait.'

Absolutely this.

I don't believe that nearly half of under 25s are gay or bisexual. (I'm not interested in the more exotic sexualities.)

I have dc aged 14 - 21. Every one of them and apparently their friends, too, describes themselves as either bi or gay. Not one describes themselves as straight - even those with girlfriends/boyfriends of the opposite sex.

Some of them, especially the younger ones, have never had a sexual partner of the same sex, yet ' just know' that they are bi or gay. Often they justify it by saying that they don't know that they won't be attracted to a person of the same sex as them, so how can they say that they aren't gay or bi?

Previous generations would simply have said "not yet interested".

I completely believe the stats on number of bi and gay young people. I worry about how divided the sexes have become with the extreme pornification of young people and their role models: boys developing appetites driven by porn and girls being told they have to be Kim Kardashian-like goddesses. No wonder they are fleeing from each other.

I am a mature student and it is no joke when I say I can be the only ‘straight’ person in a seminar room of 20 undergraduates and a young 30s lecturer. I am particularly struck by how every single one of the young women is gay or queer (never lesbian of course).

Oh I have no problem that the statistics accurately report what young peole are saying. I'm just amused at the desire of the young to label themselves and others and having an aversion to applying vanilla labels to themselves.

This is what he says about social contagion:

We are herd animals, much more captive to the herd than we like to acknowledge. ... Girls in girls’ boarding schools fall prey to school-wide waves of anorexia, self-harm, and perhaps gender-confusion too. I heard a friend say, “It was only when his best friend confessed his longing to go ‘trans’ that he found the same longing in himself; so thank God for his friend’s honesty!” And I thought, “Maybe. Or maybe he longed to be like his best friend.”

Oh I have no problem that the statistics accurately report what young peole are saying. I'm just amused at the desire of the young to label themselves and others and having an aversion to applying vanilla labels to themselves.

I agree. Remember how many people were "bi-curious" in the 90s? Most have gone onto a life of solid heterosexuality. I also don't believe all these young people are genuinely gay or bisexual and this will continue in later life.

Nothing wrong with whatever they do, it's just an observation.

I reckon part of the change in numbers is because older generations had to take sex more seriously, for a mix of good and bad reasons. Now it's more recreational, more opportunities to experiment. We've gone a long way fast from e.g. Michael Portillo losing his political career because he admitted to youthful experimentation which would be completely unimportant now. And that's a good thing.

I am particularly struck by how every single one of the young women is gay or queer (never lesbian of course).

Lesbians and then trans men are at the lower end of Sheila Jeffreys' sex castes. Some discussion of the book:

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20140410170437/gendertrender.wordpress.com/2014/04/04/exclusive-preview-gender-hurts-by-sheila-jeffreys/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20140410170437/gendertrender.wordpress.com/2014/04/04/exclusive-preview-gender-hurts-by-sheila-jeffreys/

That's a really great interesting article. As the parent of a teen DD I see this a lot in her peer group too. There are lots of girls in a sort of tribe - maybe lesbian, certainly not interested in boys and quite wary of them (13/14 yr old boys are quite challenging I think) who do not describe themselves as straight. I think it's a smart move, it gives them room to be themselves and not feel in any way obligated to date boys. My DD herself is very much a fence sitter and is hugely relieved by understanding that she doesn't have to 'know' or decide yet. But also respects that some of her friends sexuality probably is certain, although nascent and haven't actually had any relationships yet.
I think one of the commentators on the Times article says that coming out now may be easier, but still not easy. From talking with my DD I reckon quite a lot of these girls are not finding it easy to talk to their parents.
My personal experience (all girls school) was that lesbianism was quite taboo. Being thought to be gay was tricky and you could be subtly bullied. Quite a lot of the girls I was at school with, still friends with, are now out, proud, married to women. Outside of school that stigma dropped away. But it must have been a difficult time for some of them.
I suspect quite a few of the girls identifying out of heterosexuality will form relationships with men as they get older. But as adolescents find the company of other females much easier - another thing I have observed, is actually how difficult some of them find asserting boundaries. Saying 'no' conflicts with 'be kind' - this is not a good thing for young people.

Errol and Brave Mathew Parris was one of the founders of Stonewall UK - he is very distressed at the way it's turned out. Love him, he loves to start a row (not a reference to his Stonewall article, just generally). I knew about him when the Aids epidemic was becoming front and centre for the gay community. Did work with local LGB groups to try and help. Not gay myself but you'd be surprised how many straight women were stepping forward at that time, so Stonewalls campaign against women has struck me as a poor way to work. Then again, from my time doing that work, there were quite a few trans (drag) and gay people who really didn't like women. Never thought we'd have this outcome though

I think he's taken some of the peer group idea from Abigail Shrier's book.

Another advantage for Parris is that he's not on Twitter and doesn't have the slightest interest in twitterstorms caused by his articles (so won't be pressured into changing tack).

Same as pp's, my youngest teen very firmly sees herself as bi, and has dated several girls, though her only serious and sexual relationship has been with a boy. Her friends are the same, proudly calling themselves queer despite most of them being in fairly steady heterosexual relationships.

I remember being about 12 or 13 and having huge, debilitating crushes on older girls at school, though by the time I was 15 I was attracted exclusively to males. I wonder if that earlier, more exploratory awakening of sexuality is taken as evidence of what's perceived to be a more interesting orientation by today's Generation Z?

But we all know 50% of youth aren't gay. The issue now is that 'queer' now seems to mean straight!

By social pressure, classroom pressure, media pressure and, yes, through mere fashion, we are moulding soft clay, not discovering some great shard of internal granite children are born with. The younger the person, the softer the clay

And it's why infiltrating schools was the top priority. Teens first then move into primary schools. Create the confusion and questioning as young as possible.

It's like heterosexual people are appropriating same-sex attraction as an identity. That reminds me of something.

I am particularly struck by how every single one of the young women is gay or queer (never lesbian of course).

For a male person to say they are a lesbian is a cause of much celebration and support. For a female person to say they are a lesbian is now considered a declaration of heresy. It implies that you are standing on your right to know sex differences and to be homosexual by which you are declaring you believe a right to exclude all male people from your body and your bed.

Call the police/burn the witch/diaf etc etc exeunt all pursued by Dr Haddock.

The modern generation isn't modern at all, it's medieval in its intolerance of women.

Also part of the systematic removal of all women's labels and titles and re allocating them to transwomen, while leaving women..... .kind of this unnamable, untouchable, unseen caste not allowed to aspire to such things. Good women are supposed to embrace and further this proud stripping and unnaming and generalising of themselves and their bodies to benefit others. Which again is regressive beyond belief.

@nauticant

The generations were “Baby Boomers” (55-75); “Generation X” (41-54); “Millennials” (25-40); and “Generation Z” (under 25). ... Brace yourself for the British result. Just over half (54 per cent) of the youngest generation said they were only attracted to the opposite sex. The older the respondents got, the less gay they declared themselves to be. The figure for Millennials was 60 per cent exclusively heterosexual; Generation X 76 per cent; and Baby Boomers 84 per cent.

I don't believe that nearly half of under 25s are gay or bisexual. (I'm not interested in the more exotic sexualities.)

I wonder what the % would like like if the question was worded differently “have you had sex with a person of the same sex”?

I am a lesbian by the way. A biologically female homosexual.

I'm lucky that I'm old enough to have grown up at a time when girls were taught to be accepting and proud of their bodies, to understand their rights to boundaries and to define themselves without predicating this on the opinions and demands of others, and where rebelling against attempts of patriarchy to control our bodies, our language, our freedoms, our sexual autonomy and our reproductive rights, was a proud, rebellious thing.

I'm old enough that when I was coming out there were many older women and friendly groups and role models, who supported me and encouraged me not to get bogged down in other people's right think and restrictive stereotypes. And to understand that feminism includes the freedom of believe that you and your life and your choices are your business. You do not have to be a good girl and stay in the boxes and limits other people impose on you. Their feelings and happiness is not your birthright to maintain for them. You are not born to be a support human because of an accident of biology.

What young girls have that kind of support or encouragement towards those freedoms of views now? Most of those womens groups still in existence have had to go underground and operate by invitation only. They aren't there advertised on noticeboards or newspapers like they once were.

I'm also old enough not to care about social pressure and old enough to deal with the same misogynist, homophobic nonsense with newly dressed up language when someone tries to pull it on me. In part because the changes of body that only women understand and the change in the unnoticed, subconscious social language gives me a freedom young women don't have.

These young women will never have women only groups or swims. They will never have refuges or shelters or anything at all where only women are, and women are free to be women. The knowledge they are allowed is controlled, strictly, with powerful punishment for transgression. They have come from schools where they have been taught, under threat of shunning or worse, that when you are uncomfortable and want to say no to someone who is more powerful than you, you cannot say why and your right to say no and your feelings can only be considered if the person you wish to say no to will not be upset, offended or seek redress against you. Probably better not to risk it.

Gynephobia. Extreme gynephobia. We're going to have to do the 70s all over a bloody gain before we free the next generation of women from all this.

When I was asked why I wouldn't be 'kind' to a (hypothetical) child who was upset by their gender, calling them by a different name and referring to them as if they were a different sex, while they tried out living as the opposite sex, my reply was "How is it kind to lie to a child and pretend that they can have what will never be available to them?"

An excellent and useful point.