New web page for women to anonymously record incidents experienced due to self ID

[CoffeeTeaChocolate]

www.noconflicttheysaid.org/

Oh come off it JJ

I know you're desperate to believe that you're fighting the good fight against Nazis homophobes Christian evangelists etc

But you're not. So these punches don't land.

The posters on FWR were left leaning women, with a long history of fighting for women, girls, and supporting other minority groups. Giving their time or money to help. Speaking up and out. Trying and trying to help.

Ok so with all this the posting profile has changed a bit. Not for right wing loons or USA funded Christians. But for women who previously didn't take that much of an interest in feminism and have come here because we're worried.

Do you ever wonder why these punches don't land? Do you ever ask yourself why lifetime lefty women who have supported people whose voices weren't heard, who care about those that do few else do. All the lesbian posters who are older who lived through AIDS here in the UK and fought for and looked after their friends.. and I'll leave that there.

Don't you ever wonder why women like me. Don't agree with this. Lifelong feminists. From when I was a girl. Always seeing the wrongness in how different people were treated. I worked in HIV studies back in the day. I mean why do I need to prove my credentials?

What are yours? Why are you doing this? I have asked you this before and it seems like a masochistic thing to do. You come into a place where you say over and over that women like me want you not to exist. But as much as you say it. It's not true.

I just don't get it JJ.

I don't think you believe what you're posting and if you're honest with yourself. Neither do you.

Nobody is claiming this is ‘data’. To collect data you would need ethical clearance because you would be doing something with it (hopefully). Also IP addresses can be checked against submissions to ensure it isn’t the ‘same person’ (although who would have time to do that I don’t know).

Anyway .. this is the latest on that site ..

twitter.com/binarythis/status/1364420302684397568?s=20

I just want to reiterate something for lurkers...

We are constantly told on this board that there is no evidence of any issues with trans women in women’s spaces.

If women talk about any violence suffered at the hands of any male born in this context they are accused of weaponising their experiences.

If women talk about this on social media they are threatened with violence.

In media this is reported as incidents involving women and papers do generally not mention that a trans woman is involved.

And now, if they are reporting it anonymously it is not valid information.

And over and over we are told that nothing ever happens.

I want this to succeed. If there are no incidents, then we will have least have given some women the opportunity to speak up - as long as this website is widely circulated.

They have given the option to record incidents by country and by area. Should the web page be trolled, hopefully they can request that the women who reported anonymously get in touch if there is another regulatory request for information in a specific country or area. This should weed out any malicious reporting.

This also does not need to be a controlled survey about bathroom /sports/toilets/prison areas. This only needs to collect information as to whether this is an issue or not. If there appear to be an issue, proper data can be collected in that country for that area, hopefully with the help of the women who initially reported on the web page.

Skeeter, that is so interesting. I wonder why trans activists already are trying to stop this if “nothing ever happens”?

They are discussing how to get the servers hosting this to close it down. Why is it so important that women are silenced?

I know this is stating the obvious but it’s become as clear as day to me that men simply do not like to be told “no” by women. It’s inherent, implicit bias. Some women go along with that because they are young and have not yet seen the patriarchy in action. They also fail to see how their actions mirror the very thing they are fighting against. That Twitter thread is very revealing.

I think the whole thing is desperately sad. I have no doubt that there are many trans people out there who genuinely suffer from gender dysphoria and who are trying to get on with their lives. I cannot even imagine the struggles they have been going through.

Unfortunately I believe that it was a big mistake to widen the trans umbrella to encompass everyone who occasionally cross dressed. I fear that many misogynists have jumped onboard because they just don’t like women and I fear that there are some perverts there as well.

I just want to make it abundantly clear that I do not think that most trans persons are like this. I actually believe that none of the “genuine” are , but the reason I put genuine in quotation marks is that there is no way we can tell.

I don’t believe that JJ feels that Jessica Yaniv (approached underaged girls online to discuss their periods), the horrific person who posted a gloating picture of themselves half naked in a women’s refuge or the various creeps taking selfies in women’s bathrooms with weapons have anything to do with trans people. Unfortunately they are very visible is the debate. They are bad for women and bad for “genuine” trans people.

There are already Twitter campaigns from other University or Melbourne academics to get the site taken down for "promoting trans hatred". Some suggested reporting to the ISP to have it removed as hate speech. Other suggestions ranged from spamming it with loads of pro-trans stories instead to asking a third party to carry out a ddos attack to reporting the organiser to the university for unprofessional conduct.

And these were academics, both male and female (incl transmen and transwomen), all uncritically repeating the idea that the very existence of the site was harmful. Not the fact that people might lie and post false stories of negative experiences; rather that a site that contained anecdotes about the conflict of rights between women and trans people shouldn't exist.

Freedom of speech indeed.

I think jj holds others to their own standard in accusing everyone who has posted a testimony on that site. To a large extent I tend to take things at face value, although if they sound a bit off I tend to investigate further to find my own evidence.

That is how I got here - I read a newspaper article that stated (and I think minimised) the proposed GRA reform to introduce self id. When I realised there would be no threshold (and when my teacher friend confirmed there was no threshold to determine how serious the child that she was helping to socially transition was) I started thinking about the consequences. I didn’t need any input from any other sources at that point.

It is since then, after I tried to convince myself that I was worrying about nothing that I now know it was so much worse than I’d ever imagine and talking to the women on here has just helped me feel less alone in this.

I didn’t need influence from Tommy Robinson or anyone else (why is jj so keen to tie us to such extremists? All part of trying to discredit and dismiss everything we say?)

We know that men are predominantly the sexual predators. We know that predators will go to great lengths to access their victims.

That website could be absolutely nothing about trans people - there might not be one testimony that references any person who regards themselves to have extreme dysphoria that is eased by presenting fully as the opposite sex.

Every single man mentioned in those testimonies could be purely motivated to misuse the rules (including the unwritten social rules) to gain access.

This is about the ease with which the predators can and WILL take advantage of any reduction in safeguarding.

@jj1968

Just for reference before I go to bed, here's Tommy Robinson giving a speech against trans people recently, you'll no doubt be familiar with many of his talking points www.bitchute.com/video/DaWZLKZmeBwQ/

I believe Harry Miller is speaking at the next Heart of Oak conference.

There's no doubt that some right-wing voices are using the issue for recruitment.

Maybe it's not a good idea for left wing people to allow the right to own this issue. Why is it in America that only right wing people are standing up for the rights of girls in sport? Why is it that LEFT-WING people are promulgating the absurd sexism of "men can have serious sporting competition but women should give that up in order to be NICE?" This doesn't just come from anonymous Twitter users - mainstream newspapers have found journalists willing to say that if necessary women should just do sport "for fun" if that's necessary to accommodate "inclusion".

As someone who desperately wants a left wing government in this country I hate seeing right wingers like Douglas Murray making hay. But there's only so much you can do when left-wingers are unwilling to look at some of the sexism that lies behind their pronouncements.

I don’t believe that JJ feels that Jessica Yaniv (approached underaged girls online to discuss their periods), the horrific person who posted a gloating picture of themselves half naked in a women’s refuge or the various creeps taking selfies in women’s bathrooms with weapons have anything to do with trans people.

I'm not sure anyone here is qualified to decide whether individual trans people can be considered trans or not.

I note that stonewall is quite happy to use self reported incidents of ‘transphobia’ from its own staff team to promote the agenda that butch lesbians are in danger in women’s toilets inews.co.uk/news/uk/butch-lesbian-public-toilet-women-abuse-government-review-gender-neutral-facilities-833787

One wonders why that type of self reporting is fine but women self reporting incidents is not

I really hope that this can be an issue that is discussed widely. I agree that is it beyond sad that only right wing parties appear to even consider the issue.

If we leave the obvious nutcases aside ( like Tommy Robinson) people will just need to take an overall view on which political party best aligns with their main focus points. And it will not be ideal.

The trans woman (currently in jail) who stormed the capitol (Jessica Watkins?) and “tear gassed” and “forced” her way past police “like rugby” probably did that. I don’t think that she was that keen on Trumps policies on transgender people, but she probably decided that Trump on balance was the person she felt she wanted to support based on his other views. Or what do other think?

@CoffeeTeaChocolate

I really hope that this can be an issue that is discussed widely. I agree that is it beyond sad that only right wing parties appear to even consider the issue.

If we leave the obvious nutcases aside ( like Tommy Robinson) people will just need to take an overall view on which political party best aligns with their main focus points. And it will not be ideal.

The trans woman (currently in jail) who stormed the capitol (Jessica Watkins?) and “tear gassed” and “forced” her way past police “like rugby” probably did that. I don’t think that she was that keen on Trumps policies on transgender people, but she probably decided that Trump on balance was the person she felt she wanted to support based on his other views. Or what do other think?

I think the case for PR is now pretty much unanswerable.

Our divisions are now so strong on many issues and don't really fit with a straight left/right agenda. It would be much better if separate interests could be represented in different parties and then negotiate them on that basis.

What we have at the moment is vicious internal battles as each group within a party tries to eliminate the other. Much better that they should separate and then negotiate after an election.

One wonders why that type of self reporting is fine but women self reporting incidents is not

Because it's devastating to their case. Logically, you would expect to see some sense of sisterhood and interest in care for other women, wouldn't you?

It is important to remember that a transwoman is anyone who identifies as one at any time. Yaniv et al are as trans as anyone else, and access to women's single sex spaces is as open to them as anyone else.

Being lovely also does not remove the barrier many women experience in being able to access a mixed sex space.

@Biscuitsanddoombar

I note that stonewall is quite happy to use self reported incidents of ‘transphobia’ from its own staff team to promote the agenda that butch lesbians are in danger in women’s toilets inews.co.uk/news/uk/butch-lesbian-public-toilet-women-abuse-government-review-gender-neutral-facilities-833787

One wonders why that type of self reporting is fine but women self reporting incidents is not

There is some difference between a named individual, interviewed by a journalist, reporting their experiences, and an anonymous website whoch anyone can post to. I think there's a difference even between say a thread on here, or an organic conversation online, and a website that acts as a clarion call for anyone who hates trans people to just make up whatever they want.

As an example, imagine if a group put up a website where people could submit anonymous stories about crimes committed by refugees, or men falsely accused of sexual assault? How do you imagine such a site might end up looking once shared across the internet, no doubt including far right and MRA websites? Do you think it's possible that such sites might generate misinformation, and that in fact that may even be the intent of those who run the site?

It is important to remember that a transwoman is anyone who identifies as one at any time. Yaniv et al are as trans as anyone else, and access to women's single sex spaces is as open to them as anyone else.

This. Always ignore any deflection attempts by people on social media. Of course they would rather you didn't focus on the Yanivs of the world when assessing if it's right for males to access female only spaces.

A Stonewall staff member, a butch lesbian, claims that they are harassed using female toilets. They put forward no evidence for this apart from personal experience. The anonymous posters on the site are doing the same thing, and no doubt some would come out of anonymity if asked and if it were necessary.

They claim that the problem is the recent climate around trans issues and transwomen in female facilities. But of course, women's toilets worked perfectly well for decades based on the principle of social norms. It was assumed that males would not breach these norms and anyone who appeared to be a male was asked to leave. Some butch lesbians may have been challenged - but the overall assumption that only women would use the facilities would mean that other women would be likely to give the benefit of the doubt. My own experience - in decades of using women's public toilets I have never encountered anyone whose appearance gave me the slightest doubt that they were female.

This is what happens when the social norms governing these spaces begins to break down. Suspicion that someone is male and should not be using female only facilities is heightened. Demanding that anyone who identifies as a woman, can use a woman's facilities will destroy it altogether and create even more tension and aggression.

The examples on the site of women finding naked men in female changing facilities are perfect examples of where this leads to. It is a total mis-step of trans activists to campaign for this. Campaign for single-cubicle unisex facility to run alongside single sex. Anyone can use it, hence no 'outing'. You will find support. Demand that any man claiming trans status can enter facilities set aside for females for good reason, will meet resistance.

Newspapers don’t report on this because they are scared of activists shouting transphobia. They call most crimes committed by trans women women’s crimes.

Women don’t dare to go public on social media because they are scared of threats or of being accused of weaponising their experiences.

Even actual rape cases (committed by men I hurry to add) have about 1% conviction rate I think?

This is, I believe, the only way left to give women a voice.

I find it astonishing that the same people who work so hard to silence all possible ways for women to have a voice also have the audacity to say “but those things never happens”.

As an example, imagine if a group put up a website where people could submit anonymous stories about crimes committed by refugees, or men falsely accused of sexual assault? How do you imagine such a site might end up looking once shared across the internet, no doubt including far right and MRA websites? Do you think it's possible that such sites might generate misinformation, and that in fact that may even be the intent of those who run the site

jj this site is about men using women’s spaces, pretty much regardless of how they identify.

Are you saying that women are not allowed to report their mistreatment by men at all now in case it upsets certain groups of people?

How would you suggest that women would be able to report issues that the authorities refuse to listen to? Please suggest a method that wouldn’t lead to widespread abuse of named women and doxxing/sacking that many women have already experienced??

They claim that the problem is the recent climate around trans issues and transwomen in female facilities. But of course, women's toilets worked perfectly well for decades based on the principle of social norms. It was assumed that males would not breach these norms and anyone who appeared to be a male was asked to leave. Some butch lesbians may have been challenged - but the overall assumption that only women would use the facilities would mean that other women would be likely to give the benefit of the doubt. My own experience - in decades of using women's public toilets I have never encountered anyone whose appearance gave me the slightest doubt that they were female.

Exactly. This is a problem that transactivists have created. And that is my experience too. If I have encountered MTF trans people they must have been passing ones. This trend for obviously male people to go into women's spaces whatever women think about it is recent, outside of majority LGBT spaces.

Are you saying that women are not allowed to report their mistreatment by men at all now in case it upsets certain groups of people?

I think you answered your own question.

Are you saying that women are not allowed to report their mistreatment by men at all now in case it upsets certain groups of people?

Male feelings are more important than female safety.

Isn't there a rule of misogyny about that?

Women's voices don't matter. Women's experiences never happened. And if women disobey by repeatedly trying to have a voice and share an experience even after they have been told not to, and thereby sharing the problems they are experiencing to try and consciousness raise and gain support in preventing those problems - they must be deleted, discredited and punished.

Oh it's great being an assigned support human at birth person in the UK in 2021.

Twitter thread on people trying to destroy the site.

twitter.com/anonacademic_uk/status/1364559784557637632?s=19