Nic Williams (FPFW) and Nancy Kelley (Stonewall) discussing the census on Women’s Hour this morning.

[ChickenonaMug]

NW and NK will be discussing the census ‘what is your sex’ question?’
It would be good if they were actual able to have a proper discussion about this.

[PandorasMailbox]

@ZuttZeVootEeeVro

Did womens hour explain why they invited a representative from a LGBT pressure group to explain the sex question on the census and not someone from the ONS?

The ONS declined the invitation. Can't imagine why....

[Beamur]

@BlackForestCake

Could backfire: “so many agender people, let's speed up the roll-out of mixed-sex toilets”

That I can believe, even if the census was answered in such a way as to be clear on sex.
I am female. I have no sense of gender = mixed sex toilets...
It's because gender neutral is often conflated to mean unisex. Unisex=mixed sex.
Gender neutral is actually pretty meaningless when it comes to it!

[JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown]

Agender tends to be used by gender advocates similiar to being non-binary in that it's 'gender is for thee but not for me'.
I think 'none' is probably the best option.

[UppityPuppity]

1st being your sex (as registered at birth or not), 2nd is your sexual orientation and 3rd your 'gender identity'

Question 1 implies I have a sex - fine, I do.

Question 2 implies I have a sexual orientation - fine, I do.

Questions 3 implies I have a gender identify - problem - I don’t have a gender identify let alone one that correlates with female sexist stereotypes.

The question is; Is the gender you identify the same as your sex registered at birth?

You can tick Yes. Or, you can tick No, write in gender identity. There is an 18 letter text box where you write in your 'gender identity'.
G E N D E R I S M I S O G Y N Y

Great, just fits.

Happy to do this as well as what the campaign website suggests.

Sorry to be picky - do I have to tick ‘no’ to the gender identity question (which then implies I trans) for the descriptor GENDERISMISOGYNY to be counted?

Also - if I write no for the gender identity question - will it record me as being trans?

Also are we to write Feminist for the religion question - I am atheist so I can do this.

It’s still very confusing... I am very keen that I can’t be recoded as the little c word...

[Outbutnotoutout]

Perhaps every female should say they are "other" or."male"

[Gcnq]

@Manderleyagain

has lobbied to ensure that accurate data on the number of transgender people in society can not be determined, which will prevent appropriate resources for transpeople being effectively allocated.
The 2021 census will provide much better data on the trans population than the 2011 one which provided none. If lots of trans ppl fill out q27 (the voluntary one on gi) it will be possible to say how many ppl filled it it, how many have a gi different from their sex, and what they identify as now. In most cases, alongside the sex question, it will be possible to reverse engineer & piece together a picture of how many mtf or ftm ppl there are, and how many male & female people there are who id as non binary etc. That's why no one has a problem with q 27, but only with q 3 guidence.

It all falls apart when the "sex" question is deliberately designed to allow false information.
Anyone can have "F" on their passport. That person can simply go on to say "sex is same as gender".

There is a huge movement in the TRA world to try defining transwomen who are really really trans, as "cis-women" so this census enables that ideology.

[Imnobody4]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/stonewalls-new-boss-nancy-kelley-let-census-expert-be-no-platformed-ljsnw6v3r
Interesting article from May 2020, rather embarrassing for Nancy Kelley.

[Abitofalark]

I have a vague feeling that Nancy Kelley previously worked on something to do with the census - maybe she worked for the ONS? I may be wrong; I don't know where I got it from, but if not...should I join the dots?

[Cailleach1]

Well, would the ONS just did what SW lobbied them to do. SW said it themselves. NK said we/ye/they/furry are proud of having achieved this historic change.

[Dalyesque]

Haven’t listened yet but yesterday’s programme was stuffed with gender instead of sex ..used by presenter guests ad correspondents. We need to work hard..

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

I have a vague feeling that Nancy Kelley previously worked on something to do with the census - maybe she worked for the ONS? I may be wrong; I don't know where I got it from, but if not...should I join the dots?

I'm not sure about other places, but am pretty sure worked for research organisation Nat Cen, used by the government to process the GRA consultation I think.

[stumbledin]

The sex question is compulsory but in fact since last time in 2011 it was officiallly okay to enter the sex you had registered somewhere else. ie the sex question should say the sex you were registered at birth. Which in fact you would have thought trans activists would want accurately recorded so that statistics could be collected to shown those who had adopted a sex other then the one on their birth certificate.

The gender identity and sexualit question are voluntary.

I think it is really important that no one answers this. In answering you imply it is something to be thought about. Dont do this. It colludes with the Stonewall narrative. And I suspect as other do, that in the long run they want the sex question taken out of the compulsory part and have it replaced by gender.

Do not dignify the gender question by acknowledging it in any way.

It is really noticeable that in the main stream meda Stonewall etc., have gone all out to get coverage about how forward looking the census is to have included questions on gender and sexuality, with the intention of lulling people into thinking this is something they should take part in.

This is why Stonewall has so much power. The have so many contacts and networks that they can plant stories that combined slant the way in which people think. This progressive slant story have far more coverage than the fact that you can lie in response to the sex question.

Really disappointed that the joint campaign just seems to have side stepped the danger of the gender question being included.

A much better line would have been if you think gender identity is important what about Jedis, or post Brexit how many people think they are British rather than say Scot, Welsh, Irish or English. Much more relevant to nearly every body that fad questions like gender.

[Signalbox]

Have people seen this?

www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/onsstonewallmembership

[Beamur]

Members of the SW scheme since at least 2006. That's plenty of time to embed policy.

[TriflePudding]

Hang on a second - the ONS pays for membership to Stonewall, the same Stonewall who isn’t a lobby group but who has lobbied to include certain questions in the census which will further enable Stonewall to increase their fund raising.

And that’s perfectly ok for a charity to do is it?

[Abitofalark]

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I have a vague feeling that Nancy Kelley previously worked on something to do with the census - maybe she worked for the ONS? I may be wrong; I don't know where I got it from, but if not...should I join the dots?

I'm not sure about other places, but am pretty sure worked for research organisation Nat Cen, used by the government to process the GRA consultation I think.

Thanks for that Eresh. I probably saw a reference to Nat Cen and thought it was an abbreviation of national census.

[Manderleyagain]

@Abitofalark

I have a vague feeling that Nancy Kelley previously worked on something to do with the census - maybe she worked for the ONS? I may be wrong; I don't know where I got it from, but if not...should I join the dots?

She was head of nat cen. They no platformed Alice sullivan from an event on research methods because of her work showing the problems of conflating gender id and sex in data.

[persistentwoman]

@TriflePudding

Hang on a second - the ONS pays for membership to Stonewall, the same Stonewall who isn’t a lobby group but who has lobbied to include certain questions in the census which will further enable Stonewall to increase their fund raising.

And that’s perfectly ok for a charity to do is it?

Yup - along with the CPS, countless local and national government departments, charities, universities, schools and the rest. And we wonder why women are being erased everywhere.

[Manderleyagain]

Gcnq It all falls apart when the "sex" question is deliberately designed to allow false information.
Anyone can have "F" on their passport. That person can simply go on to say "sex is same as gender".

There is a huge movement in the TRA world to try defining transwomen who are really really trans, as "cis-women" so this census enables that ideology.

Yes I agree with this but the problem is caused for the data on sex rather than the data on trans ppl which is going to be much better than before. The problem will be if you try and find out how many men in their 20s there in a given area (by Cross referencing age & sex) for eg sexual health services, it will include trans men who have changed any docs, which could make quite a difference in that demographic.

[SirVixofVixHall]

@ZuttZeVootEeeVro

Did womens hour explain why they invited a representative from a LGBT pressure group to explain the sex question on the census and not someone from the ONS?

This is the question.

[malloo]

Good to hear this piece on women's hour. Nicola Williams did really well to get in the bit about prisoners, that will get a few people interested in what is going on here if they're not aware of it. I think Emma Barnett is good, she comes across as even handed, letting both sides speak, but also not tolerating people dodging questions. I wonder where she stands on this personally?

[Defaultname]

[quote Signalbox]Have people seen this?

www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/onsstonewallmembership[/quote]
This answer is a bit silly:

"ONS has held an annual membership with Stonewall since at least 2006. As financial transactions are only available from April 2006 onwards (because transactions prior to this date were recorded on a financial system which is no longer accessible), we cannot confirm whether this membership was in place prior to that."

Couldn't someone at the Office of National Statistics just have rung a friend at Stonewall and asked for the dates? It could be counted as one of the benefits of the £33,000 plus handed over to SW.

"Use of the Diversity Champion logo on promotional materials and being listed on the Stonewall Proud Employers site. This supports the attraction and recruitment of talent to the ONS." would suggest that increased Stonewall involvement in the ONS was and is inevitible.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

I've just seen this - a new group called Sex in the Census. Looks like a useful website:
sexinthecensus.org

[picklemewalnuts]

I'm so angry that these questions no longer give accurate data for future service provision and for social history.

As a transwoman, a male will be able to register as female and lesbian.
A transman will be able to register as a gay male.
Who knows what box they will tick at gender identity!

All the queer and nb people will presumably tick birth sex and 'other', but who knows.

The three questions lose all meaning.

[merrymouse]

The idea that people were allowed to self identify (in the modern sense) their sex or any other info in the census is a complete falsity.

Agree. It's ironic and sad that Stonewall of all organisations should suggest that nobody really cared much about sex.