The TWAW debate for beginners

[Sugarintheplum]

Hi All,

I don't know how to describe my position, but here goes. I am a black woman. I consider myself to be a woman. I respect trans women's decisions to think of themselves as women. I don't think of trans women as men, I don't think of them as women; I think of them as trans women. I'm not being 'goody' I'm being sincere.

I feel really stuck because so many of my friends take other positions and consider mine transphobic. I agree I haven't read or watched as much as I could to understand any side of the debate to be honest. Please point me in the direction of literature, videos, podcasts, any type of resource that will help me to feel improve my knowledge.

This is a good place to start
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

This thread has a lot of useful posts and links

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?reverse=1

Thank you!!!

It might be worth thinking about whether you see trans women as neither women nor men.

They are male by definition.

The idea that a man who opts out is not-a-man is based in toxic masculinity.

Why not whether!

Not all males who “transition” consider themselves to be TW. Some, like Miranda Yardley, prefer to describe themselves with terminology that is banned by Mumsnet because of objections by other trans people.

By banning those terms MN prioritises the views and feelings of some transgender people over other transgender people, including some transsexuals.

Articles by Miranda Yardley categorised as ”How transgenderism works” :

mirandayardley.com/en/category/how-transgenderism-works/

Jenn Smith describes himself (JS’s preferred pronouns are masculine) as:

“Jenn Smith is a 55 year-old transgender identified male. Born in Oliver, British Columbia. He has degrees in history and political science, and has extensive life experience being transgender and interacting with the transgender community. He first began expressing as the opposite gender as a foster child when he was about 9 years old and believes these impulses came out of his childhood traumas and a sense of rejection. His understanding of his transgender identity is complex, but he has moved in out of transgender expression over the course of his life. He has been writing and speaking on the dangers that transgender ideology poses to women and children, and more recently has focused his efforts on exposing SOGI 123 in schools and its assault on parental rights, freedom of religion, and freedom of conscience. He has been pushing for provincial and national inquiries into the mass medical transitioning of foster children and children with psychological and emotional problems. He has done countless public talks all across BC, staged rallies and protests, and presented to School Boards. The title of his most recent public talk is “Synanon, The Brainwashing “Game”, and Assault on Our Most Vulnerable Children: How transgender Ideology and Big Pharma is Assaulting Reality and Victimizing Our Most Vulnerable Children.”

transanityca.wordpress.com/about/

(I have quoted the whole About page for the benefit of Mumsnet Moderators, as it makes clear that Jenn’s position is thoughtful, deliberate and principled - not faddish or due to ignorance of the current orthodoxy.)

This is a long video called TERF Wars but it's entertaining and covers everything. Give it a try for the first 20 minutes at least:

And this is the first part of a four-part documentary series called Dysphoric. It too is well worth watching:

Keep in mind, OP, when searching the web for information that google is quite biased (captured) and you might fare better with alternative search engines. You'll find lots of helpful information from posters here of course.

I always like this video, it helps demonstrate the cognitive dissonance with much of the gender identity ideology.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=xfO1veFs6Ho

[quote CranberriesChoccyAgain]Keep in mind, OP, when searching the web for information that google is quite biased (captured) and you might fare better with alternative search engines. You'll find lots of helpful information from posters here of course.

I always like this video, it helps demonstrate the cognitive dissonance with much of the gender identity ideology.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=xfO1veFs6Ho[/quote]
Oh wow. I hadn't seen that before!

Jenn Smith describes himself (JS’s preferred pronouns are masculine) as:

Jenn Smith is embedded within the evangelical movement and has been linked to white supremicist rgoups. Possibly not the best example.

Everyone who questions the tennants of Gender Orthodoxy is linked to white supremacists, facism or the Alt-right at some point.

Welcome Sugarintheplum! Thanks for starting a thread and sharing your thoughts.

There's a lot of information and topics of discussion under this subject, so I always advise newcomers to take their time to read and absorb all the issues and arguments from various perspectives.
Don't feel like you have to rush to solidify all your thoughts or positions ASAP.

It took me a good few months to read the debates and intelligent discussions here before I started to feel like I was getting a handle on the broad areas of concerns. So start reading through some of the threads here. The articles and videos posted above are also a good starting point. Comment or ask questions on other threads. Most people are happy to answer questions if someone isn't coming across as trolling.

Are there any specific areas or points that concern you the most at the moment?

One thing I've certainly learned from this issue is how to assess an argument on its own merits, without diverting down the "I saw Goody Proctor with the devil" route.
A tendency I now realise I've had in the past, having been active in left wing politics all my adult life.
Live and learn, eh? Well, some of us learn I guess.

@jj1968

Jenn Smith describes himself (JS’s preferred pronouns are masculine) as:

Jenn Smith is embedded within the evangelical movement and has been linked to white supremicist rgoups. Possibly not the best example.

Ha ha!!!

Sugarintheplum - if you can be bothered to keep an eye on who posts what on MN then a good way to shortlist worthwhile resources is to notice who smears them with allegations of being in the pockets of

a) evangelical Christians
and/or
b) the far right”/ the “alt right”/ “neo-nazis” etc.

Often these will be people who are attacked online and physically in real life for advocating for women’s rights and safeguarding children.

”The Transgender Jedi Mind Trick”
by Jenn Smith

Check out that video by Jenn Smith to get an idea of what pisses some people right off (that and advocating for the protection of vulnerable children in care, autistic and indigenous children, of course).

I started a thread a few years ago now asking what was the difference between sex and gender. I was just so bloody confused. Anyway the great FWR help me Un pick it and I found this website really useful covering the basics

sexandgenderintro.com/

One thing I've certainly learned from this issue is how to assess an argument on its own merits, without diverting down the "I saw Goody Proctor with the devil" route.

Gosh, yes. It's been so educative, in that respect.

I am now utterly cynical. I take second hand information from no-one, I always, always look for the source, for the actual quote, for the evidence.

Don't take anyone's word for things, OP. Women on this board will generally endeavour to link to factual evidence and their sources as much as possible, but you should always check it for yourself.

To be informed on these issues, there's no shortcut. You have to do a bit of work digging and checking for yourself. I don't say this to be dismissive or 'educate yourself', I just think that in order to arrive at a logical position it's essential to satisfy yourself that you're not just taking the word of some random on the internet.

People can confidently throw out assertions that sound convincing. Check, double check, look for corroboration.

This has been really eye-opening, not just for this topic, but for all topics. If somewhat depressing.

I consider myself to be a woman. I respect trans women's decisions to think of themselves as women. I don't think of trans women as men, I don't think of them as women; I think of them as trans women.

It's not really about considering oneself. You are a woman, with xx chromosomes, and probably most if not all of the usual biological features that women have.

Transwomen are male, by definition. One can't be 'trans' unless one is 'transing' from the one to the other - and there are only two sexes. The theory is that transwomen are males 'transitioning' into women.

I would like to have a good answer as to why transgenderism is an ideology, maybe like a religion. A religion I don't won't to prescribe to so I can say I'm a gender aethiest (term I've seen on here and like as it is how I feel). But how do I articulate that? To me saying TWAW is like a belief system, but why to so many people believe and follow it?

What I find odd are the contradictions: on the one hand all these genders want to have their own separate identity flag (not just the pink and blue one, but numerous others too), but simultaneously also want to co-opt 'woman'. Why don't they think being trans is fine as an identity as it is?

@FemaleAndLearning

I would like to have a good answer as to why transgenderism is an ideology, maybe like a religion. A religion I don't won't to prescribe to so I can say I'm a gender aethiest (term I've seen on here and like as it is how I feel). But how do I articulate that? To me saying TWAW is like a belief system, but why to so many people believe and follow it?

Coersion, threats, bullying, no-platforming, job loss, all things which have been thrown at the non-believers.

Others are SJW types who think they're fighting for the underdog, either oblivious to or deliberately ignoring the massive funding behind the movement.

It gets said often but bears repeating: GC feminists don't hate trans people. The problem is with the aggressive and violent advocates, TRAs, many of whom are likely not trans. They've joined the movement because it seems an acceptable way to silence and harrass women.

The difference between sex and gender.

I wonder what explanation your friends give for accusing you of being transphobic?

Do you feel like you are transphobic?

As pps say, question the mantras

Q. Can human beings change sex?
A.No

Q. Are trans people the most marginalised and maligned people in society?

A. There is major trans policy influence over every public service organisation- the BBC, police, NHS, local authorities, most government depts, schools, CPS, many sporting regulatory bodies, many children’s charities, Girl Guides, EHRC, Scottish government, Welsh government, many newspapers and media outlets, 850 uk major employers etc.
Most of the policies put in place have ignored basic procedure such as proper Equalities Impact Assessments to consider how others, like women, are affected by fundamental policy changes.

Any request to even discuss the impacts of such policy changes are shut down and peoples jobs are threatened. Basic safeguarding procedures are being ignored. Draw your own conclusions as to the power currently held by people advocating for trans people.

Q. Given that there is an obvious conflict in rights, should we sit down and discuss it openly?
A. Women - yes please. Gender activists - #nodebate.

Q. How do many transsexuals (their explicit choice of terminology) feel about the situation?
A. Many high (and low) profile transsexuals are very clear that they were born male (hence their transition journey - a huge life challenge), they don’t need access to women’s single sex facilities because they don’t feel in danger and are actually campaigning on the side of women’s rights.

We have no evidence that transwomen are in any more danger in the men’s facility than any other vulnerable male group (like teen boys etc) and thankfully zero trans people were murdered in the uk since 2018 (compared with approx 200 women every single year)

This is all evidenced and rechecked - but do check for yourself.

Thanks for asking this op. I’m at the same place. Commented on a few threads here but mainly just reading threads and slowly gaining a different perspective.

@VampireTheBuffetSlayer

The difference between sex and gender.

That's excellent.