how to talk about genders with pre-teens

[polyjuicepotion]

I am not sure whether this is the right section to post about this, but here goes:

I have been hearing a lot about the many genders theory (the one with the genderbread person). Quite frankly, I disagree with it but then it could be that I don't completely understand it - so I keep an open mind. Recently I decided to probe what my DD (who is 11) knows about it and it turns out that they have already talked about it at school in lessons, I don't know how much and in what form (she won't tell me anything specific). She knows the definitions of bigender, non-binary etc and when she asked me my opinion I told her that I don't support that theory.

She then asked me how I can not support gender theory but support gay and trans rights (which I do). In her head, it is mutually exclusive.

I really don't know how to explain this to her. I have never been very good in social sciences and everything that has to do with psychology/sociology, mine is the exact sciences domain.
I tried to say things like "it is a fundamental human right to be happy" and gay people cannot be happy if they cannot live the life they want. She then retorted that same applies to non-binary/bigender/transgender etc people. She also asked why I think it is ok to be transgender and change your sex (with hormones and/or surgically), but it is not ok to identify as bigender.

In my head, I reject the many genders theory because it is based on unjustified stereotypes that are made up and blown out of proportion.
I support gay and transgender rights because homosexuality and gender dysphoria are real, whereas those stereotypes are not.

Am I wrong? Am I right? Am I confused?
Any advice from more experienced gender critics is most welcome! (but please be gentle... as I said social sciences are like a foreign language to me. I can fit a weighted linear regression to any set of data but I don't understand human interactions... I guess this actually would make me male, according to that theory )

And of course, while much of the trans activist argument was based on a "born in the wrong body" narrative, last October the government published guidance rejecting this as harmful and trans activist lobbying groups such as Mermaids jumped like a scalded cat and U-turned into a replacement narrative of "we never said that anyone was born in the wrong body".

twitter.com/Mermaids_Gender/status/1309192315467116547

My seven year old and I were talking about this the other day.

I said some times boys want to pretend they are boys and some girls sometimes want to pretend to boys. And thats ok and we should still be kind to them but deep down we know they cant change as we cant do magic....

@EdgeOfACoin Thank you for this - I will educate myself on the subject

Thanks to all of you for insightful contributions!

My tween is a lesbian. She has always preferred girls and we’ve always spoken openly and supportively about LGBT+ issues. I have taught her respect for all humans and also to question things she is uncomfortable with. For her the idea of having a biological male body in her PE changing rooms is horrific and so we discussed gender starting with those terms.

Gender is how we present ourselves (or don’t - I’m not a huge believer in gender stereotypes but for the purpose of simple discussion it works) - we can identify however we choose and present ourselves as such but that doesn’t make it a material reality. I discussed the damages of gender stereotypes as a binary and how non-binary at its most basic accounts for the majority of the population but that we don’t need to name it or wear it as a badge seeking validity.

I discussed gender dysphoria but I also explained that some men like to dress up as and be thought of and treated as women without having dysphoria, that it’s like a compulsive hobby for them. She asked me if it was a fetish and I though it best to just say yes.

What the kids are talking about in the playground is way ahead of what I was at that age (and I was pretty crude) and so I don’t think you’re surprising them by discussing concepts such as fetish but I understand it’s uncomfortable and needs to be age appropriate.

All the kids in her class are currently claiming to be bisexual too.

@OhHolyJesus

Just adding my two pennies worth, though you have lots of useful advice already...

I'd break it down further into

Sex
Gender identity
Gender

Just to be expressly clear in their meaning and how they are separate and without giving the middle one too much weight or substance.

This is where I've been getting myself confused. I've only considered sex and gender, not gender identity, because I hadn't considered it different to gender.

So, sex is determined by the biological body you are born with, and sex comes in 2 types, babies are girls or boys. This can be observed at birth (and before).

I thought gender is how you present yourself to the world, and how you dress. Most people will choose the presentation which matches their sex, eg women will choose clothes from the Ladies section, unless they have big feet or a need for pockets, or its the 90s and androgyny is cool. Most men will choose clothes from Topman not Topshop.

Then there are stereotypes - are these the gender bits or the gender identity bits? I.E. Ability to multitask vs ability to ask for directions. Relevant in a limited and specific way.

So gender identity - this is what I don't have. To nick a pp's analogy with religion, other people have a gender identity, I'm some kind of gender atheist. But other people have an identity and it is important to them.

Would it be easier if tick boxes didn't use the words sex or gender and just said
"Tick one. Are you
a) a woman
B) a trans-woman
c) a trans-man
d) a man. "

That way we could all get the correct medical treatment AND the pronouns we prefer.

I get a feeling that the refusal of some young people to "conform" to their biological gender is because gender stereotypes can be unhelpful sometimes. For example, girls love pink, wear frilly dresses, and love cute cuddly toys. Some girls who don't "match" this description feel that they are being forced into it simply by being called "girls".
On the other hand, I still think much of the nowadays talk about "empowering" women, is more about making "men" out of women, especially in workplace settings. "If we want to occupy exec roles we need to become more manly" (have you tried buying a workwear skirt suit recently? It's not easy! Trouser suits dominate the shops). I want to be able to wear a skirt AND be a leader.

So, which is the female identity? The woman who wears trousers at work and leads a company? Or a girl who doesn't like frilly dresses but is still a girl nonetheless? It seems impossible to reconcile these two issues.