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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Examples please of NHS women exclusive language

42 replies

CaptainNemosOtherHalf · 13/02/2021 09:30

I am planning on discussing the eradication of the language of women and motherhood within the healthcare and the NHS with someone I know personally high up in the NHS. I’ll be able to be open and honest, but I need to be clear with what is happening and why it is a problem.

Please could you provide some examples, (including comparators where this is not done to men), why it is a problem and what needs to be done to stop this.

I.e Brighton

Chestfeeding - anatomically incorrect/ chest fluid would poison the baby/breast is gender neutral/babies cuddling at the breast bonds mother and child.

Removing the word maternity - removes the concept of motherhood - the most important relationship for the nurture of babies.

Many thanks.

OP posts:
Manderleyagain · 13/02/2021 19:04

@CaptainNemosOtherHalf

Eg cancer charities moving to ‘cervix havers’, maternity and neonatal charities moving exclusively to ‘parents’ instead of ‘women’ and ‘mothers’ etc

V useful. Can anyone point me to some direct examples?

There are quite a few examples. Sometimes it was a communication especially for trans ppl which I have no objection to. Sometimes it is that the charity doesn't mention women any more. www.jostrust.org.uk/information/cervical-screening/what-is-cervical-screening Jo's trust (cervical cancer) has expunged the words female & woman from their web site & social media. The only mention on their web site is in who should go for a screening (& top of the list is 'everyone with a cervix'). Tho obviously there are pics of women. This has happened in the last few years.

If you pick a general cancer charity (eg cancer research uk) and look into it you will be able to compare lots of messaging re 'individuals with xxx' for female cancers, but lots of messaging about men for prostate cancer etc.

Sometimes I suspect an other reason is behind the change in language so it's worth knowing about that. Some of the changes in breastfeeding support are obviously about this issue (eg 'breastfeeding and chestfeeding') but bf support for 'parents' could be partly due to a shift towards supporting the whole family & recognising dad's (or partner's) role in successful bf. My instinct when I heard 'human milk' replacing breastmilk was that its come from the USA where they are a bit prudish, and say nursing instead of breastfeeding. But it's certainly used as part of this new gender lexicon. Le Leche Leuague are the breastfeeding charity that are going for this most. All the charities do contract work for the NHS.

gardenbird48 · 13/02/2021 19:16

not removing the word woman but in relation to Manderley's post.

La Leche League is an international, nonprofit, nonsectarian organisation.1 LLLGB supports everyone who wants to breastfeed or chestfeed in reaching their goals. We do not discriminate based on sex, gender or gender identity.

Trans men, trans women and non-binary individuals may choose to breastfeed or chestfeed their babies. You do not need to have given birth to breastfeed or chestfeed, as we can also see in the experiences of those nursing adopted babies.

Trans women can use a protocol similar to adoptive and other non-gestational mothers and stimulate their milk supply : it is called the Newman-Goldfarb protocol. You can read more here www.laleche.org.uk/relactation-induced-lactation/ and here www.asklenore.info/breastfeeding/induced_lactation/protocols4print.shtml.
.

www.laleche.org.uk/support-transgender-non-binary-parents/

Manderleyagain · 13/02/2021 19:18

@Middleagedmidwife

I’m so happy you’re doing this! I am currently arguing against ‘ gender inclusive language ‘ being forced on us when discussing breast feeding. It is definitely spreading through healthcare. Funny I’ve never seen any prostate cancer literature refer to anyone other than men. It’s only women being erased .
I'm glad you are talking about it within maternity services (going by your username). There is a blog site called fullcream.blog that might be worth a look.

I think this thread will be very useful pulling this information together. And I hope your conversation goes well OP.

talesofginza · 13/02/2021 19:55

I would like to hear someone explain why the NHS should be a vehicle for contentious, political changes to cultural understandings which have been universally held for time immemorial. Why should the taxpayer-funded health service be legitimising—through policy, guidance and resource allocations –the unscientific view of a minority of people that they are not the sex that they... are? Why should it lend its halo of respectability to gender ideology? And if NHS organisations begin making ‘gender identity’ accommodations with resource implications, e.g. Brighton NHS Trust not only making language changes, but offering special services like separate rooms, etc., where will it end? Will the male individual who ‘simulated’ pregnancy and stillbirth be offered NHS services to act out such depraved fantasies, paid for by us?

WhereYouLeftIt · 13/02/2021 19:58

twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1360656660272984069

"Trans activist Ruth Pearce was one of the advisers to Brighton NHS, which resulted in 'chestfeeding' replacing 'breastfeeding'. Today Ruth is criticising the NHS for asking for patients' biological sex as opposed to the gender they identify as, saying this leads to 'misdiagnosis'"

How can knowing someone's sex lead to misdiagnosis?

Biscuitsanddoombar · 13/02/2021 20:03

Given stonewall are now working on this, brace yourself for more ‘being inclusive by erasing any reference to women’ language

www.stonewall.org.uk/about-us/news/nhs-rainbow-badges-%E2%80%93-play-your-part-promoting-lgbt-inclusion-healthcare

CaptainNemosOtherHalf · 13/02/2021 20:43

Trans women can use a protocol similar to adoptive and other non-gestational mothers and stimulate their milk supply

For the second time on this thread: OMG. What is the matter with these people?

So much on this thread, thank you all.

‘Autistics with a cervix’. That has particularly saddened and angered me.

Good point about these charities often being commissioned by the NHS - I can use that to link beyond the NHS.

I think my tack will be broader - the removal of respect and dignity (part of the NHS constitution) for women and our needs as per examples provided: -erasure of language and reality of women’s experiences/needs in healthcare, demonstrated in the extreme with policies that place rapists in female wards (I still can’t believe I have typed that) GardenBird yes I would like a copy and any other relevant docs you have.

The Stonewall scheme - thanks I have just had a quick look. Chilling - surely this sort of propaganda generates fear within the LGBT community? Also - the cognitive dissonance of them talking about health disparities whilst simultaneously campaigning to medicalise children for life.

What are the solutions?

OP posts:
Manderleyagain · 14/02/2021 12:22

The other issue is a woman's right to ask for a female chaperone or female hcp, and for that to mean female.
It might be worth asking the person you will be talking to to try & find out for themself what NHS policy is on this. It's not clear. But they would have to understand what trans woman means now (ie how broad the definition is). Tara Hewitt has some kind of role as trans advocate within NHS. I have seen her saying on more than one occasion that it's bigoted for a female patient to ask for a female (ie afab) hcp or chaperone.Eg this tweet in response to a question about asking for a chaperone of a specific sex, & her reply not using the word sex:

"I specifically use gender as the request not to have a trans woman or man treat a person should be treat in the same way we would treat a request not to have a black/gay woman or man treat a person. :)"
mobile.twitter.com/Tara_Hewitt/status/1202953219938369538
The v senior person in NHS she told this to was v grateful.

WalpurgisNight · 14/02/2021 19:56

There are a number of angles from which this is a very serious problem for effective healthcare delivery. Sorry this is going to be a very long one but I hope it's helpful OP.

The first and most visible one is from a public health perspective. Effective public health communication relies on use of language which is easy to understand and accurate. Complex health messaging using technical language (of the 'people with a cervix' kind) is a barrier to the public's understanding of their own health. People with low literacy, or low comprehension skills (which frequently overlaps with general deprivation or protected characteristics such as disability or belonging to a minority culture) are disproportionately affected by this and complex messaging may therefore reinforce health inequalities. This is very common. 42% of the working age population in the UK struggle to understand everyday health information: service-manual.nhs.uk/content/health-literacy

The public-facing language of the NHS is enormously important because it sets the tone and context within which healthcare is delivered and communicates something about the NHS's priorities and values to the public and to the staff on the ground. That is why this is shaping up to be a massive battleground. If the NHS or senior medics can't bear to say the word 'woman' that is a subtle communication of how the health and care system views women's interests and wishes. That is why the weaselly public health and policy language which just happens to completely avoid using the words 'woman' or 'female' is a problem. It has political consequences because it means you are losing language about women from the public sphere and eroding public acknowledgment of particular issues as uniquely affecting women-as-a-class. This is damaging for women because it erodes feminist analysis, as well as the argument for women's inclusion in public life and representation in political decision making - if issues like abortion affect 'people' rather than women, there is no longer necessarily a moral case for including women in decision making about those issues.

Secondly it is critically important that the health service does not lose language to do with women or with physiological sex differences because if you lose the language of these, you have no way to describe the concepts associated with them. You then lose something analytically/conceptually very valuable, because sex is a fundamental biological variable which affects almost every aspect of how medicine is practiced. It affects everything from patient safety (in terms of knowing the right reference values for lab tests and dosages of drugs that are appropriate to the sex of your patient), to diagnosis and treatment (understanding the epidemiology of different diseases and how diseases present and progress in each sex, understanding how pregnancy in women patients affects how you deliver care for them), to delivering care with valid consent (e.g. if a transwoman treats a patient who has asked for a woman clinician, you arguably haven't obtained valid consent). It affects the research which develops better treatments, because you need to understand who you are recruiting to your trials and how different treatments affect outcomes for each sex. It affects the health data which informs research and policy - you have to be able to clearly identify and define women in this data in a stable way to be confident that you are designing good policy that meets their needs. I could go on and on. It is vital that clinicians and policy makers are able to conceptualise, clearly name and act on sex differences when delivering care and designing policy. This may now be at risk.

Fundamentally the point is that if you choose to jettison the language, you will ultimately at some point, in some way end up impacting patient care. Care based on a lie is bad care.

Thirdly as you say there is a respect and dignity angle to it - a publicly funded health system has no business making the correct name for 51% of the public a taboo word, especially in the context of medical issues that only affect women like pregnancy. That is not serving the public. Genderism is a political project and the NHS should be politically impartial . Doesn't mean that you can't be inclusive of/respectful to transgender people but they should not be made an excuse for neglecting respectful treatment of the majority.

You ask for solutions OP, and I'm afraid that this can ultimately only be solved by a grass-roots movement building a visible mass public consensus that mobilises action at political level. This is because the ideological capture in the whole health and care system (NHSE, DHSC, industry, academia, think tanks) is so pervasive and goes so far up that it is not plausible that it will be challenged from within any time soon. Almost all senior health and care leaders at least publicly buy into this language and ideology (most disappointingly of all, even the saintly Chris Whitty), so don't underestimate how far this goes up. But anything you can do to plant a seed with someone, or at least get them not to go publicly all-in on genderism is good, because it will make it easier for them to climb down when the tide of public opinion turns.

But it is really the public scrutiny that will make the difference here. Politicians really, really care about being reelected. I think Janice Turner said something recently, that every politician should be asked at the next election on where they stand on males in teenage girls changing rooms. Forcing the issue in this way and making politicians understand where the public are on this is the way forward.

Gcnq · 14/02/2021 20:52

How can knowing someone's sex lead to misdiagnosis?

YY when in fact it's precisely NOT knowing someone's sex that can lead to misdiagnosis, when heart attacks present differently for males/females, Autism presents differently in male/female children, renal failure presents differently....

It's more upside down/looking glass land isn't it.

NiceGerbil · 14/02/2021 21:23

One of the tweets on the NHS sex male/female question

Complains that you have to say your sex to get a covid test

Men are at higher risk of dying from covid. I think it's reasonable with the tests to see if men are contracting it more etc

The responses all say it's awful for the NHS to record your sex and why do they need it anyway.

I just don't get it.

To fully understand they need to know sex and trans status.

What sex you are is really important. Different effectiveness of drugs, different presentation with heart attacks. Possibility of pregnancy. Loads of stuff.

I don't get it at all. It puts trans people at risk.

ChattyLion · 14/02/2021 23:37

Also public sector bodies have to respect the public sector equality duty which requires all of protected characteristics to be considered and which requires good relations to be promoted between people possessing different protected characteristics.

NiceGerbil · 14/02/2021 23:43

Like the Scottish equalities assessment about putting trans women in women's prisons. Hand written with N/A written next to protected characteristic of sex...

CaptainNemosOtherHalf · 15/02/2021 08:12

Thank you all for your advice.

Manderlayagain - great points. I will use.

Like the Scottish equalities assessment about putting trans women in women's prisons. Hand written with N/A written next to protected characteristic of sex...

Have they been forced to retract/redo this?

Surely to not even pretend to do an EIA, and put this in writing, leaves them open to being sued. How is this not a consideration for these people, even if the needs of women prisoners, among the most vulnerable in society, are of no concern to them? Are they so captured that they think people won’t notice?

The things I am learning... I really want the world to stop.

OP posts:
ChattyLion · 15/02/2021 16:01

They are relying on everyone being captured surely. There must be standards in the public sector -set by previous judicial reviews if nothing else- for the minimum viable equality impact assessment surely? And surely if they are done in such a ridiculous way it can challenged?

MoleSmokes · 17/02/2021 14:33

@CaptainNemosOtherHalf

Devon Partnership NHS Trust also undergoing review of its trans policy whidch allows male sex offenders on female wards.

Also, why are males (not just rapists, which should be self evident) allowed on female wards? I thought they were supposed to be single sex?

Has the NHS called us people with a cervix etc?

NHS Wards have never been single sex - they deliberately lied to us. They were called "single sex" but the policy was "single gender":

"Sex, Gender and the NHS. Part 1: The “Single-Sex Hospital Wards” that have always been a lie"

medium.com/@anneharperwright/sex-gender-the-nhs-1e8f4e6363a6

Archived: archive.fo/14ivs

ChattyLion · 18/02/2021 07:58

It is outrageous though because I would say most people of either sex widely want and expect single sex care wherever relevant, we assume these protections must be in place. Women must be able to have a reasonable expectation of single sex healthcare provision for our own privacy, dignity and safety.

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