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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Janice Turner - French 'public intellectuals'

43 replies

ErrolTheDragon · 11/02/2021 08:35

The last section of Turner's column today may be of interest - she comments on the like of Foucault, now cited in support of 'biological sex is a construct', was one of the people behind removing the age of consent in France in the 70s.

Quell surprise.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/all-i-want-in-lockdown-is-perfect-eggs-on-toast-6kgj8tvwn?shareToken=b3bfe04ebd7bfbfac48e9e256a5e3eda

OP posts:
merrymouse · 12/02/2021 13:38

@MichelleofzeResistance

It's a maturity thing isn't it? Where maturity doesn't mean age but experience/world wisdom.

To begin with it all seems fresh and new and generous and oh so progressive and it feels lovely. It's exciting to be that new generation that goes into the future where they know more and see differently and everything's all lovely and equalite and liberte and fraternite and it's like dancing with the hippies in central park.

It's only when you start to notice and think about and understand what's going on inside it, that you start to see and have to admit to yourself that there are many who will take advantage of less boundaries and are not thinking about lovely values at all but how to use other people's naivety to hurt and do harm and indulge themselves at other people's expense.

And that your parents and previous generations weren't joyless, prejudices and stupid old gits stuck in old fogeyism. They just had a fuckton more life experience than you and understood why boundaries mattered and what they prevented.

Yes, very much so.
Rosa2021 · 13/02/2021 16:30

I always wondered about his interest in BDSM, and how that influenced his ideas on power relationships, or vice versa. I do find him creepy, one letter he signed with other 'intellectuals' was in response to 3 Frenchmen being accused of having sex with 13/14 year old boys and girls, maybe Janice discusses this in the article. I'm still not sure why he hasn't been 'cancelled' as this is far worse than any 'wrong think' certain female academics are being accused of at the moment.

QueenoftheAir · 13/02/2021 16:55

Well, quite, @Rosa2021

But I'm not particularly fond of cancelling anyone. His views on the age of consent were of a piece with the times and the misogyny of those times, and were as much about gay rights as anything ...

Rosa2021 · 13/02/2021 18:33

Me neither Queen of the Air, unless advocating violence but I still can't understand why he is such a poster boy for post-structural thinking when others have not been forgiven for less. But he was a bloke I suppose!

QueenoftheAir · 13/02/2021 18:42

He's a bloke. Says it all.

And a lot of other blokes' careers are caught up in advocating for his concepts. Although there has been a substantial body of criticism of Foucault's methods by historians.

ShallWeStartTheMeeting · 13/02/2021 19:00

The Springora book is heartbreaking- so is the Camille Kouchner one where she reveals that Olivier Duhamel sexually assaulted her twin brother.
The latter is very much about this intellectual 'bobo' élite, with her mother (a law professor) sexualising her children at a very young age, as she was herself.
Camille Kouchner describes idyllic summers in her stepfather farmhouse in the south of France, where adults and kids were encouraged to run around naked, with no boundaries or bedtime and kids being treated as little adults.

ChestnutStuffing · 13/02/2021 19:46

@YetAnotherSpartacus

I think it's come up on this board before but it is worth noting that Simone de Beauvoir and Jean Paul Sartre also signed the relevant letters in the French press. I don't know why all of the French intellectuals at the time were taken with this but it wasn't just Foucault & Derrida

It was the zeitgeist of the times. Feminism was in its infancy and few had really considered the power dynamic between men and women. Women were 'sexually liberated' for the first time (meaning the 'zipless fuck', but also the orgasm) and quite a few bought into this (including Greer) - again without (I think) quite considering the impact of patriarchy and male power/privilege. Many of the liberation movements were led by young people under 20 and the fledgling youth movement also demanded an end to laws that prevented them from doing a number of things, including voting (in some places), saying 'no' to being conscripted, and drinking (in some places). I don't think that many of the people who argued for lowering of ages of consent (which was 21 for what were then referred to as homosexual males) would have actively advocated for paedophilic relationships (although some obviously clearly did have this agenda).

Yes.I don't think it can really be understood as some paedophiles pushing themselves into influence. It was a new view of sexuality, that had certain principles and a kind of logical consistency, that led to more public acceptence of these ideas. It was very much tied to general feelings that sexuality needed to be freed from constraints, that young people should be allowed a voice in society and the youth movement more generally, that sex is natural and we should treat it that way.

I'm not even sure the real problems with this are much to do with patriarchy as such - they are to do with the nature of sexual activity which has serious consequences, particularly for women, and can have a dark side. And a misunderstanding of child and youth development, the purpose of family structures, lack of respect for older people (and their silly conservative ideas) and also romantic and wholly misplaced feelings about nature.

And I think we have not entirely left it behind. Many of these ideas underpin many people's current ideas about sex and culture generally. The real difficulty is that even if people now have recognised that some of these things might have been bad (sex with minors, say), there has not been any real move to reconsider the whole package. Those underpinnings are largely accepted, and it's always possible people will follow them to their logical conclusions.

But who is going to challenge them? You will see it from some conservative thinkers, and Mary Harrington among feminists. She wrote an article for Unherd suggesting that a feminist position should reject the idea that sex before marriage is good for women - I don't see many feminists really even giving that the time of day, sexual liberalism is too much attached, a priori, to the idea of women's freedom for most.

But unpicking those ideas could lead to thoughts like that, and I suspect most will not risk ideas that could even potentially lead to such a possibility being entertained. So those ideas will be left to remain and stew under the surface in western liberal thinking.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 13/02/2021 23:33

But who is going to challenge them? You will see it from some conservative thinkers, and Mary Harrington among feminists. She wrote an article for Unherd suggesting that a feminist position should reject the idea that sex before marriage is good for women - I don't see many feminists really even giving that the time of day, sexual liberalism is too much attached, a priori, to the idea of women's freedom for most

Eh? I hadn’t seen that. What a load of tosh. So sad that some feminists are taking refuge in the same conservatism that us second wavers fought against. Pendulum swings, I guess, rather than investing in deep consideration of the structural issues at stake.

QueenoftheAir · 14/02/2021 14:08

I'm not even sure the real problems with this are much to do with patriarchy as such - they are to do with the nature of sexual activity which has serious consequences, particularly for women, and can have a dark side. And a misunderstanding of child and youth development, the purpose of family structures, lack of respect for older people (and their silly conservative ideas) and also romantic and wholly misplaced feelings about nature

Very interesting @ChestnutStuffing

I used to think, in the AIDS crisis of the 80s, that women have always known the connections between sex and death.

I think also that some of the sexual liberation of the 1960s was necessary; and some campaigns have been to align the age of consent for girls and boys and for homosexual and heterosexual sexual relationships.

ChestnutStuffing · 14/02/2021 16:03

@YetAnotherSpartacus

But who is going to challenge them? You will see it from some conservative thinkers, and Mary Harrington among feminists. She wrote an article for Unherd suggesting that a feminist position should reject the idea that sex before marriage is good for women - I don't see many feminists really even giving that the time of day, sexual liberalism is too much attached, a priori, to the idea of women's freedom for most

Eh? I hadn’t seen that. What a load of tosh. So sad that some feminists are taking refuge in the same conservatism that us second wavers fought against. Pendulum swings, I guess, rather than investing in deep consideration of the structural issues at stake.

Well, yes, as I said - many simply won't consider that the foundations of the sexual revolution may inherently lead to this kind of view of sex - they don't like the fact that it seems to suggest a need for boundaries around individualistic sexual liberty, or that such an understanding of sex might not lead to the best outcomes, or even the most freedom, for women or children (or arguably even men) when looked at in terms of class or just society as a whole.

So much so that it will be rejected without even bothering to consider the argument because it sounds to "conservative".

YetAnotherSpartacus · 15/02/2021 09:27

Well, yes, as I said - many simply won't consider that the foundations of the sexual revolution may inherently lead to this kind of view of sex - they don't like the fact that it seems to suggest a need for boundaries around individualistic sexual liberty, or that such an understanding of sex might not lead to the best outcomes, or even the most freedom, for women or children (or arguably even men) when looked at in terms of class or just society as a whole

Honestly, I think it is a Catch-22 based on a red-herring - and that is a failure to recognise the existence of patriarchy and male-power and its deep structural and systemic roots.

There is nothing wrong with women fucking around per se - and why should we not get our sexual jollies. In my younger days I was all up for this and I enjoyed the sex. However, that came with limitations - as well as biological ones (pregnancy, disease or the spectre thereof) these were related to a fear of male violence, being stalked, having one Romeo remove the condom without telling me and being dumped when they got a 'better offer'. But then, marriage for women (especially traditional marriage where she gives up financial independence and puts his career first) has its obvious drawbacks too - and I'm not sure that dating without sex would mitigate these.

The bigger issue for me is raising boys to recognise women's full personhood and equality, girls to be assertive, addressing standards of beauty, creating real rape laws and enforcing them and so on - in other words addressing patriarchy and/or creating protections for women.

Slipping between 'zipless fucks' and 'traditional marriage' and any point in between won't work otherwise because it is not the real issue.

Coyoacan · 15/02/2021 14:05

they are to do with the nature of sexual activity which has serious consequences, particularly for women, and can have a dark side. And a misunderstanding of child and youth development, the purpose of family structures, lack of respect for older people

Society was seriously off-kilter at the time and needed a shake up.

But one thing that no-one ever mentions is that, at the time, nobody talked about how it felt to be the victim of child sexual abuse, as it was a totally taboo subject. Even the victims were cut off in their private experience, unable to compare notes.

Nowadays nobody can claim ignorance

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 15/02/2021 20:07

”It now seems almost unbelievable to recall the noisy campaign to legalise sex with children from 13 upwards that was supported by feminists and philosophers alike.”
Is this around the same time of the PIE campaigns in the UK?

Yes, but I never read or heard a feminist in the 70s supporting paedophilia. It was always men wanting wanting to ‘free’ children.

The nearest was a woman I knew who would now I think call herself liberal, who felt guilty for finding a PIE zealot creepy. She felt some pressure to be more ‘open-minded’. But this came from a very academic and liberal position, not everyday feminism.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 15/02/2021 20:08

To clarify: I’m remembering feminism in the UK.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 15/02/2021 23:47

Yes, but I never read or heard a feminist in the 70s supporting paedophilia. It was always men wanting wanting to ‘free’ children

Apart from PIE I'm not sure that this was a terribly 'noisy' campaign. The lowering of the age of consent for homosexual males (to use the language of the time) was the main issue that I remember.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 16/02/2021 11:52

Apart from PIE I'm not sure that this was a terribly 'noisy' campaign.

I agree. Maybe more in France? I never heard much about it over here, in feminist circles or elsewhere.

But I’m startled by Busy’s comment, I did a social sciences degree in to 90s and lowering the age of consent was considered a good thing in discussions around children’s rights. There was not much focus on paedophilia at that time. It was more around allowing access to contraception and decriminalisation of consensual sex.

That one got past me at the time.

Idealism is natural at student age. But it’s unbelievable that any adult didn’t notice the, er, possibility that adult predators might take advantage.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 16/02/2021 11:59

^ I think they did. The result was 'Romeo and Juliet' laws where sex between consenting young people was decriminalised, but not between older and younger people and special clauses too for older young people (so to speak) and older people where there was an imbalance of power - i.e. a teacher and so on.

kesstrel · 16/02/2021 12:12

Idealism is natural at student age. But it’s unbelievable that any adult didn’t notice the, er, possibility that adult predators might take advantage.

But to consider that possibility, you have to acknowledge that predators exist. The left wing position dominating social sciences at that time (and which you will still find to some degree among social workers etc.) is that personality disorders don't exist, let alone sociopaths. It's a kind of double-think; yes, there are people who do bad things but they are victims themselves, and need sympathy and understanding which will be enough to stop them doing bad things, so we don't really need to worry about safeguarding....

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