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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

ACLU on sex and biology

59 replies

andyoldlabour · 05/02/2021 14:16

According to the American Civil Lberties Union

"The ACLU went on to explain that, first of all, “trans girls are girls,” and that the idea of sex being rooted in biology is a “myth.”

Wow, where do we start, or indeed finish with that statement?

www.dailywire.com/news/aclu-issues-twitter-thread-allegedly-debunking-myths-about-trans-students-in-sports?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=benshapiro&fbclid=IwAR2qZtgBD9IwAaOlMf6C6B_xFJ907VsBtwtyFmV3Pthgd1UMIdBhlOXcbYw

OP posts:
nauticant · 06/02/2021 10:25

Your comment merrymouse leads me to another thought I had in mind: these ideologues are not in the business of making the rest of us believe what they say. They're in the business of making it impossible for the rest of us to say what we believe.

merrymouse · 06/02/2021 10:29

Efforts to exclude subsets of girls from sports can undermine team unity.

Exclusion is part of the nature of competitive sport, so this is an odd argument to make. A subset will always be excluded. The only question is whether the reason for the exclusion is fair.

TornadoOfSouls · 06/02/2021 10:33

@QueenoftheAir thanks for your input. It was when I learnt about Early Modern misunderstanding of female biology (surprise that a woman wasn’t a sort of inside out man, that women’s bodies contributed to conception other than as a simple incubator) that the reality that the (white) male is default, the female is ‘other’ really had meaning for me.

slug · 06/02/2021 10:36

There used to be a trivia question.

"In the 1976 Olympic, who was the only female competitor exempt from gender testing?"

The answer being Princess Anne

MaudTheInvincible · 06/02/2021 10:39

@nauticant

Your comment merrymouse leads me to another thought I had in mind: these ideologues are not in the business of making the rest of us believe what they say. They're in the business of making it impossible for the rest of us to say what we believe.

Absolutely right!

merrymouse · 06/02/2021 10:42

However nauticant, I think they are only successfully policing the opinions of their own tribe. In a country like America, a very large group of people will be happy to use this to show that the left are just as anti-science as the right and that the ACLU are a crack pot organisation whose views on all issues can be ignored.

Why believe in climate change if those libs don't even know how babies are made?

Meanwhile who else is standing up for voter rights or refugee rights?

The same goes for Amnesty and UN Women.

9toenails · 06/02/2021 10:57

@QueenoftheAir

What they have mainly misunderstood is the perfectly reasonable idea that attitudes to and ideas about biological sex are culturally and historically diverse.

Which is sort of what Judith Butler actually says about sex in Gender Trouble:

gender is not to culture as sex is to nature; gender is also the discursive/cultural means by which a "sexed nature" or a "natural sex" is produced and established

That is, Butler argues that our strong notions of gender [roles, stereotypes] iframe how we think about biological sex. Although it suits a lot of gender extremists to interpret Butler different - if they have read her work, which I mostly doubt.

For example: in the Middle Ages, in European Christianity, concepts of sex were not framed in terms of difference or binary opposition, but in terms of hierarchy ('Great Chain of Being")

God
Angels
Man
Horses, Dogs
Woman

Evidence: the Bible - Eve made out of Adam's rib ...

(I sometimes think dogs & horses were valued more than women in that hierarchy! but that's my dusty scholar's joke Grin )

Post-Renaissance, sex started to be conceptualised as difference - as more medical material knowledge accumulated. But add ideas of difference to ideas of hierarchy, and you can see how there's still - even today - a concept of sex as a binary hierarchy ie men and women are different, but male/men still at the top of a hierarchy.

Lecture over ... Grin

' That is, Butler argues that our strong notions of gender [roles, stereotypes] iframe how we think about biological sex. '

No. You have this wrong. What you say here, ' ... our strong notions of gender [roles, stereotypes] frame how we think about biological sex is very likely true. But it is not what Butler argues.

Read it again: ' ... gender is also the discursive/cultural means by which a "sexed nature" or a "natural sex" is produced and established. The claim here is stronger. It is that this framing of how we think about sex is what produces sex. Which is nonsense.

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. Unfortunately for pomo beggars (amongst whom certain trans 'theorists'), wishes are not horses.

nauticant · 06/02/2021 11:11

This ability to form and impose your own reality is a gift to extremists who benefit from polarisation between groups. There can be no meaningful debate because the different groups have their own (mutually inconsistent) realities. It turns the middle ground into a wilderness because it's a very uncomfortable space to inhabit so you end up with the non-extremists, even if they're the majority, going silent and going to ground, and without debate you've got hateful mud-slinging between the extremes. It also traps people into their adopted extreme positions, moving away turns you into a heretic and you've nowhere to go except into the inhospitable wilderness.

JaimeLeeCurtains · 06/02/2021 11:26

So is it remotely plausible to say that Butler and Butlerists argue that humans imagine biological sex into existence, therefore it cannot be fixed or scientifically knowable?

And that those who choose to 'imagine' biological sex as binary are therefore wrong within the conceits parameters of this linguistic / philosophical argument?

Because that to me would be like using quantum theory and Schrodinger's cat to inform, say, sentencing policy in the criminal justice system.

merrymouse · 06/02/2021 11:30

@JaimeLeeCurtains

So is it remotely plausible to say that Butler and Butlerists argue that humans imagine biological sex into existence, therefore it cannot be fixed or scientifically knowable?

And that those who choose to 'imagine' biological sex as binary are therefore wrong within the conceits parameters of this linguistic / philosophical argument?

Because that to me would be like using quantum theory and Schrodinger's cat to inform, say, sentencing policy in the criminal justice system.

Yes, I think this is a fair summary of the situation.
9toenails · 06/02/2021 11:45

@JaimeLeeCurtains

So is it remotely plausible to say that Butler and Butlerists argue that humans imagine biological sex into existence, therefore it cannot be fixed or scientifically knowable?

And that those who choose to 'imagine' biological sex as binary are therefore wrong within the conceits parameters of this linguistic / philosophical argument?

Because that to me would be like using quantum theory and Schrodinger's cat to inform, say, sentencing policy in the criminal justice system.

It is not at all implausible to say these people argue that human beings imagine everything into existence, so that nothing is scientifically knowable.

Science is just another social construct, they will tell you.

This is not like using quantum theory and Schrodinger's cat to inform ... sentencing policy. It is much worse than that.

Btw I too thought your earlier post --

I think they are so tangled up in misunderstandings of anthropology that it hurts my brain .

What they have mainly misunderstood is the perfectly reasonable idea that attitudes to and ideas about biological sex are culturally and historically diverse .

To read that as 'biological sex itself is a myth' is clap trap .

-- is spot on. Thanks for that.

JaimeLeeCurtains · 06/02/2021 12:15

Some vague thoughts ... I do 'get' the Butlerian thinking then, I guess. And it seems to me that it just does not and cannot reach the threshold of providing the groundwork for establishing legal, social and political frameworks and policies - because they'd all just be imagined constructs too, wouldn't they?

It's a nonsense argument to replace one set of constructed laws or rules (e.g. sex based) with another set of constructed laws or rules (e.g. gender identity based) on the basis of a philosophy that holds both to be imagined fabrications.

Butler (or Butlerism) is just a useful idiot here.

This sex/gender switch is about very real gynophobia - and I'm certain now that I'm not imagining that.

Thank you for this thread.

andyoldlabour · 06/02/2021 12:57

Here is an article on Y-DNA testing. It is not an invasive procedure, probably similar to the regular drug testing which athletes undergo. As others have pointed out, it only has to be done once in the athlete's life and could become part of the "Biological Passport".
Does anyone recall Lauren Jeska the UK fell runner who tried to murder UK atletics manager Ralph Knibbs, after being asked to do blood tests? Jeska is currently being held at Foston Hall women's prison.

learn.familytreedna.com/test-types/y-chromosome-dna-y-dna-str-test-will-learn/

www.wada-ama.org/en/questions-answers/athlete-biological-passport

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauren_Jeska

OP posts:
QueenoftheAir · 06/02/2021 13:36

And it seems to me that it just does not and cannot reach the threshold of providing the groundwork for establishing legal, social and political frameworks and policies - because they'd all just be imagined constructs too, wouldn't they?

I don't actually disagree with either @JaimeLeeCurtains or @9toenails - just pointing out that there is an element of "truth" (whatever that is ...) in some of Butler's starting points. And tat a lot of TRAs & po-mos haven't actually read Gender Trouble (I have ...).

It is the case that humans in part perceive & construct our social world via words & ideas. We all filter 'reality' via our interpretations, emotions, imaginations, reasoning. And discourse has an impact on material reality. Otherwise, how would socialisation into oppression work in total? (I've cut and pasted below John Stuart Mill's explanation of this, which is still pertinent , 150 years later)

But - as you say JaimeLeeCurtains - the social constructionist view doesn't provide the total, or even sufficient grounds for organising the practices & institutions of the material world.

Here's John Stuart Mill & Harriet Taylor Mill, from The Subjection of Women on socialisation:

All causes, social and natural, combine to make it unlikely that women should be collectively rebellious to the power of men. They are so far in a position different from all other subject classes, that their masters require something more from them than actual service. Men do not want solely the obedience of women, they want their sentiments. All men, except the most brutish, desire to have, in the woman most nearly connected with them, not a forced slave but a willing one, not a slave merely, but a favourite.They have therefore put everything in practice to enslave their minds. The masters of all other slaves rely, for maintaining obedience, on fear; either fear of themselves, or religious fears. The masters of women wanted more than simple obedience, and they turned the whole force of education to effect their purpose. All women are brought up from the very earliest years in the belief that their ideal of character is the very opposite to that of men; not self-will, and government by self-control, but submission, and yielding to the control of others. All the moralities tell them that it is the duty of women, and all the current sentimentalities that it is their nature, to live for others; to make complete abnegation of themselves, and to have no life but in their affections. And by their affections are meant the only ones they are allowed to have—those to the men with whom they are connected, or to the children who constitute an additional and indefeasible tie between them and a man. When we put together three things—first, the natural attraction between opposite sexes; secondly, the wife's entire dependence on the husband, every privilege or pleasure she has being either his gift, or depending entirely on his will; and lastly, that the principal object of human pursuit, consideration, and all objects of social ambition, can in general be sought or obtained by her only through him, it would be a miracle if the object of being attractive to men had not become the polar star of feminine education and formation of character

(from the Project Gutenberg version)

And I love this paragraph, where Mill & Taylor point out that we've only ever lived under patriarchy - so its superiority to other ways of running the world is merely theoretical:

The least that can be demanded is, that the question should not be considered as prejudged by existing fact and existing opinion, but open to discussion on its merits, as a question of justice and expediency: the decision on this, as on any of the other social arrangements of mankind, depending on what an enlightened estimate of tendencies and consequences may show to be most advantageous to humanity in general, without distinction of sex. And the discussion must be a real discussion, descending to foundations, and not resting satisfied with vague and general assertions. It will not do, for instance, to assert in general terms, that the experience of mankind has pronounced in favour of the existing system. Experience cannot possibly have decided between two courses, so long as there has only been experience of one. If it be said that the doctrine of the equality of the sexes rests only on theory, it must be remembered that the contrary doctrine also has only theory to rest upon. All that is proved in its favour by direct experience, is that mankind have been able to exist under it, and to attain the degree of improvement and prosperity which we now see; but whether that prosperity has been attained sooner, or is now greater, than it would have been under the other system, experience does not say

NecessaryScene1 · 06/02/2021 13:40

Wonder if it would have been better or worse if rather than debating whether or not we should leave the EU, we had debated whether the EU actually existed and that EU membership was a spectrum.

QueenoftheAir · 06/02/2021 14:48

See, I think there's a difference between
debated whether the EU actually existed and that EU membership was a spectrum

and discussing the various ways in which different people are educated, socialised conditioned to view the EU, how that comes about, and what the ideological motivations for promulgating particular (and different) views of the EU are. And what's at stake in differeong uderstandings.

There's a difference between complex enquiries into how we are where we are (in any topic, area, concept) and whether or not that thing exists.

I thin one is informed scholarship; the other is what I'd call "vulgar post-modernism."

It's definitely the latter that the TRAs have got hold of.

CharlieParley · 06/02/2021 15:16

[quote TornadoOfSouls]@QueenoftheAir thanks for your input. It was when I learnt about Early Modern misunderstanding of female biology (surprise that a woman wasn’t a sort of inside out man, that women’s bodies contributed to conception other than as a simple incubator) that the reality that the (white) male is default, the female is ‘other’ really had meaning for me.[/quote]
If you go back further, to the beginnings of agriculture, there's a credible theory that the patriarchy was born from men's emerging understanding that they played a role in women gestating young. Until that point, the general belief did not connect the act of sexual intercourse with women creating life.

(Obviously that's 10 to 15 thousand years ago, and some individuals may well have had an idea before that, but it was animal husbandry and early efforts at breeding animals to maximise or minimise traits that allowed men to understand they had a role to play. And with then needing to protect that role.)

NecessaryScene1 · 06/02/2021 15:26

I thin one is informed scholarship; the other is what I'd call "vulgar post-modernism."

Agree. A bit of post-modernism to "take a step back and looking at this afresh" is a good thing.

But you can't forget the actual modernism, with, you know, rationality and material reality and stuff.

This nonsense is just using pure post-modernism as a power play.

BlueCatRedCat · 06/02/2021 15:30

Does anyone else feel like they are being emotionally abused by all this? I grew up in an emotionally abusive household and spent 13 years in an emotionally abusive relationship. I have the same feelings of distress, fear, impotent rage, and the utter headfuck as to why anyone would believe the abusers when their words are such patent, provable lies. Trying to tell the truth is like screaming into space, it feels like nobody can hear you. I have been clear of my abusers for many years now, but I'm starting to get that same feeling of utter dread again whenever I read this stuff, and am told there is nothing to see here by self styled liberals who should be on my side (and me on their's).

BlueCatRedCat · 06/02/2021 15:33

Sorry to have dropped that in there, you are having a far more esoteric and interesting conversation, I had only read the OP when I posted.

CharlieParley · 06/02/2021 15:36

@BlueCatRedCat

Sorry to have dropped that in there, you are having a far more esoteric and interesting conversation, I had only read the OP when I posted.
No need to apologise. And yes, I do think this is abusive.
CharlieParley · 06/02/2021 15:38

Sorry to hear about your experiences BlueCatRedCat Flowers Unfortunately it's easier to recognise patterns of abuse when you have been at the receiving end of it.

nauticant · 06/02/2021 15:46

I don't have your background BlueCatRedCat but sometimes after reading this stuff I feel a weariness in my bones and actually start to feel unwell, it's a tension feeling that reminds me of nausea and anxiety. I then have to walk away for that feeling to pass.

QueenoftheAir · 06/02/2021 15:53

No need to apologise BlueCatRedCat I feel like that, when I read some of the gender extremist bollocks.

I don't have the experience of abuse, though - for me it's just frustration at their stupidity & half-informed thoughts and lack of real knowledge.

JaimeLeeCurtains · 06/02/2021 16:17

@QueenoftheAir thanks for those very apt passages from Mill and Taylor.

And @BlueCatRedCat, it's all linked - social ideas of the body, power, abuse ... women are being denied their sense of self. It's dislocating.

Thinking about the Mill and Taylor quote (the first one) that @Queen posted above, it sometimes feels like the deal we are socialised into as girls (well, I was, certainly) - be kind, be nice! and you'll be protected! - has been unilaterally subverted.

Now it's be kinder! be nicer! you bitches can't be protected by us if you're not kinder! come on, you can be kinder that that, or we'll burn you!

Of course, no girl or woman could ever be kind enough. It was a cruel illusion. Maybe like @CharlieParley broached, the whole Neolithic 'agricultural revolution' was the origins of a massive Stockholm Syndrome.

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