Radio 4 - not 5

[Awning10]

They are discussing sport. I think Martina will be on later.

It's incredibly confusing when she is referring to men who have had hormone treatments as women. But

I was speaking with a TWAW acquaintance about..

I love that new adjective! Gonna use it myself.

Martina was great and you can hear the hesitation in her voice as she tries to be “diplomatic”. I understand why she does this, the TRAs can’t then pick her apart for using “transphobic language”.

I have caught up now

Just heard McGowan say that we are not talking Wimbledon or the Olympics.

Try telling that to the kids, well to the girls, the boys will not be delivered the "its only a game" message. Boys sports are far too important for that.

bollocks to that, it is the sort of sex discrimination that is meant to be illegal in US schools

no girls should be given that message at school

No competetion should be biased against girls.

No sport should be telling girls that boys feelings are more important than their dreams.

No school should promote faith over science

Oh my that phrase stood out to me too - 'we are not talking Wimbledon...'
Even more important then that we get this right! Grass roots sport is where most girls and young women compete. Let's not spoil it for them! It was only in the 1970s let's not forget that women were allowed to run marathons

Jeez. McGowan (in the 6:50) interview described Martina's evidence-based claims as a false narrative. How this is different from Trump's cry of "fake news" when the facts were inconvenient escapes me.

To get to Wimbledon, kids need to start at grass roots! How many girls will miss out on university scholarships and not be able to train enough or have the sponsorship money to get to the competitions that lead to Wimbledon?

Martina was great-we have 100 days until Bidens EO comes into effect-there is time to turn this around.

Martina was great. Hope there will be other coverage too. 100 days takes us up to Easter pretty much.

Can anyone direct me to how to I can listen to this later?

Oh my that phrase stood out to me too - 'we are not talking Wimbledon...'

and why are they not talking about Wimbledon?

If it's appropriate for kids then it is for all ages and levels.

Talk. About. Wimbledon. (You fucking cowards.)

For kids a sports day can be their Olympics.

I know there is a need to balance fun and competition

but one message for the boys and another for the girls is not acceptable.

'We are not talking about Wimbledon' - I thought this was incredibly dismissive of the thousands of women who compete in sports at all levels. It might not be international competition level but it matters to the women taking part, and for many it is a stepping stone to higher competition. Not to mention that this isn't just about fairness, it's about safety too. But the rights of women to participate safely and fairly in sport don't matter as much as how someone feels about it?

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000rvjm

@mindtheclegs

The "It's not Wimbledon" was really bloody rude.

I don't care if it's Wimbledon or junior parkrun. Boys and girls have different abilities. Imagine 1st girl (11-14yrs group iirc) at junior parkrun not getting placed because three males decided to opt in as females.

McGowan was terrible. She kept talking about high school sports - but if I understand correctly, high school sports in the US is commonly connected to college scholarships (which in turn leads to elite sports)?

And she mentioned "a few" males in elite women's sport. It only takes three in one Olympic event to lock women out of the medals entirely.

Women need sporting role models.

Most of us don't exercise enough - seeing women do amazing athletic feats is inspiring.

I am less likely to have taken up ice skating as a 12 year old if Christopher Dean did the Bolero with a trans woman. I wouldn't have seen myself as having a chance of emulating what James Torvill did on the ice.

.. James Torvill..

Oh no, what are you telling us?

And she mentioned "a few" males in elite women's sport.

I don't understand this argument at all. Why not just allow a few men in women's sports. And a few adults in children's sports. And a few drugs cheats in all sports.

What's the point in drawing up rules which aim to be fair then letting a few men ignore them?

prisencolin as we know, it is entirely possible that Jane Torvill is trans because we must not assume gender.

I'm willing to lay money and a couple of my kids down in a bet that I know which sex Jane Torvill is, though.

Martina was great. It's just so awful that women and girls are having to use so, so much of our precious time and energy defending the already proven and obvious.

It's exactly like being in an abusive relationship. Walking on eggshells. Tick ✅ .
Being gaslighted. Tick ✅ .
Subject to constant DARVO. Tick ✅
Changing goalposts. Tick ✅
Eroding boundaries. Tick ✅
Nothing is ever fucking good enough. Tick ✅

Deep breaths.

Is this a good time to share this?

For those who haven't seen it, it compares the times /distances of high school boys to Olympic Women's finalists.

boysvswomen.com/#/

@Xanthangum

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000rvjm

@mindtheclegs

Thank you

Finally got round to listening to it.

It was interesting that the TRA didn't just scream bigot about Martina. She was better than a lot of our TRAs, even if her assertions were evidence free.

Nick was superb. I was surprised how much time they gave it.

I love Martina for this. She has no need to do this but instead of driving her away the abuse has just made her committed. I think highlighting where sports can be mixed sex is a clever strategy because it highlights why they usually aren't while being inclusive.

I bet someone is regretting telling Martina to ‘go away and educate yourself’