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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NEW: Grounds in support of intervention in the Bell v Tavistock JR appeal published

238 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/01/2021 09:53

twitter.com/RadFemLawyer/status/1354002497753538562?s=19

This is going to fascinating to follow.

GIRES, Stonewall, Brooks and the Endocrine society are intervening.

OP posts:
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RedToothBrush · 28/01/2021 22:18

www.channel4.com/news/children-have-been-very-seriously-damaged-by-nhs-gender-clinic-says-former-tavistock-staff-governor
‘Children have been very seriously damaged’ by NHS gender clinic, says former Tavistock staff governor

Interview with Dr David Bell by C4 News

MoleSmokes · 29/01/2021 07:32

Interesting article by Miranda Yardley from 2018

"The Science of Gender: what influences gender development and gender dysphoria"

Extracts

"With thanks to Bob Withers for the original work dated 23 October 2018. I have taken Bob’s words unabridged and added my comments in italics. This was a write-up of The 2018 European Society for Paediatric Endocrinology (ESPE) Science Symposium on 18-19 October 2018 at The Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust entitled ‘The Science of Gender: Evidence for what influences gender development and gender dysphoria and what are the respective influences of nature and nurture’. "

"This conference was funded by Pfizer pharmaceuticals"

"Professor Gary Butler of UCLH and the Tavistock GIDS introduced proceedings. He remarked that no chromosomal, hormonal, or other physical anomalies had been detected in the clinical population using the GIDS, despite initially screening for these.

Dr Polly Carmichael, head of the GIDS and a clinical psychologist, went on to give the first talk. It concerned the differences and similarities between gender dysphoria and sex development disorders. Surprisingly, given her profession and the stated purpose of the conference, Polly did not mention psychological factors influencing gender development. Instead she emphasised genetic, biological and social elements. When questioned about this omission she described it as a ‘Freudian slip’. The omission is surprising given the Tavistock’s position as a leading psychoanalytic clinic and the preoccupation with identity development in psychoanalysis. Freud’s (1917) Mourning and melancholia, Winnicott’s (1967) ‘mirroring’ and the Boston Change Process Study Group’s recent (2010) work on the role of implicit relational knowing in the construction of the inner world are all deeply concerned with the development of identity.

Unfortunately, this reluctance to address psychological factors proved to be a feature of the conference. There was not a single talk on the role of psychological factors in the aetiology of gender dysphoria or gender identity. But Professor Riittakerttu Kaltiala-Heino, an adolescent psychiatrist from Tampere Finland, did acknowledged the importance of a psychodynamic perspective. She spoke about her clinical experiences- including her work with ‘adolescent onset gender dysphoria’, sometimes known as ‘Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria (ROGD)’. She made several important points, observing for instance that in Finland, as elsewhere, psychological co-morbidities remain largely untreated because psychotherapists wrongly believe that only gender identity specialists should treat GD patients. In her experience, such co-morbidities are likely to persist if they are not addressed psychologically before medical treatment. Interestingly she also mentioned that several of her patients seemed to share an identity. Many of the young FtMs in her care claimed to have spent large parts of their childhood alone in the woods fantasising about being a male wolf for instance. She acknowledged privately that this was probably due to social contagion via the internet as people were encouraged to provide the sort of history that would facilitate their medical transition."

See more at:
mirandayardley.com/en/the-science-of-gender-what-influences-gender-development-and-gender-dysphoria/

highame · 29/01/2021 08:57

I have a note that today is when the Court of Appeal with consider the Interveners, am I correct?

Manderleyagain · 29/01/2021 10:25

Yes that's right. RadFemLawyer tweeted it today. Short hearing today, she exkevts that they will be allowed to intervene.

highame · 29/01/2021 10:54

That's was my thinking too. Thanks

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 29/01/2021 12:16

So, tl;dr. @Genderintell, @BrookCharity and @TheEndoSociety have been given permission to intervene. As have various others including UCLH and Leeds, Transgender Trend, and the aforementioned Dr Bell.

From the Fox killer^

Interesting that Stonewall not allowed...

OP posts:
Manderleyagain · 29/01/2021 12:21

Newsnight journalist's thread

mobile.twitter.com/hannahsbee/status/1355127683491917834

Liberty and bma might be applying to intervene.

Not sure how these ppl will be able to intervene without sitting new evidence. Strange. Hopefully someone will explain.

Manderleyagain · 29/01/2021 12:22

*submitting

OvaHere · 29/01/2021 12:24

Hannah Barnes
@hannahsbee
·
7m
None of the new interveners will be allowed to make oral submissions nor submit any fresh evidence. The court made the point that all of these parties could have sought permission to intervene in the original case, and that this was an appeal – not a fresh hearing. 5/

So what are they going to be arguing if no fresh evidence is allowed? Will it all be focused on Gillick?

merrymouse · 29/01/2021 12:29

The process is difficult to understand isn’t it - I could understand how a lawyer might be able to argue that the original judgement or analysis of Gillick was wrong - but these aren’t lawyers.

MichelleofzeResistance · 29/01/2021 12:34

Yes I'm very interested to know how intervening looks when there's no oral evidence or new evidence permitted? Is new views and explanations of the evidence 'new' evidence? I thought this appeal had to be demonstrating that the judges made an error somewhere ie a point of law was wrong? Legal brains, would someone kind please explain how this works for laypeople?

merrymouse · 29/01/2021 12:39

Mime - can they use mine? Grin

merrymouse · 29/01/2021 12:39

Mime!

Defaultname · 29/01/2021 12:53

@merrymouse

Mime - can they use mine? Grin
How do you mime 'transwoman'?

Give us a clue!

merrymouse · 29/01/2021 13:02

I'm not going there defaultname, but I would love to imagine this all being communicated in the form of dance.

NEW: Grounds in support of intervention in the Bell v Tavistock JR appeal published
Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/01/2021 13:23

Looks like some are happy to throw the Tavistock under the bus if they get the puberty blockers part overturned

twitter.com/johnhalton/status/1355128249844723714?s=21

merrymouse · 29/01/2021 13:26

The problem with the ‘blame the Tavistock’ argument isn’t the lack of better evidence from alternative sources.

merrymouse · 29/01/2021 13:27

Sorry - is the lack of better evidence.

OvaHere · 29/01/2021 13:28

A reminder that Keira and her lawyers will still need considerable digging to challenge all these interventions by deep pocketed orgs.

merrymouse · 29/01/2021 13:30

Also, one of the failings of the Tavistock was its inability to stand up to pressure from outside sources, so difficult to see how more pressure from those outside sources will improve things.

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 29/01/2021 14:10

I asked the role of intervention if they cannot give new evidence. This is what @Lady Justice said:-

"So typically it means a word limited written submission. Aim is to assist the court and be to the point. Will be like their app to intervene. Evidence already in the case so they can quote from that etc. But nothing new, to make sure case gets closure (final hearing in April)."

MichelleofzeResistance · 29/01/2021 14:46

Thank you, really helpful. It sadly sounds less fun than interpretive dance, but I do understand now how it will probably work.

highame · 29/01/2021 15:40

Bet they have some pretty big name Judges but they already had because, methinks, everyone knew this would happen. Smart some of these legal folk

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 29/01/2021 17:10

The Endocrine Society is an American organisation. In their news letter below they make a big deal of puberty blockers being 'completely reversible' and don't mention the effects on bone growth and psychological function. All of this already debunked in the original case - blockers are stage 1 of a pathway leading to cross sex hormones and surgery. And the Tavistocks own research confirms. They'll have to come up with more than this.

endocrinenews.endocrine.org/endocrine-society-partners-to-intervene-in-u-k-transgender-medicine-court-appeal/

nauticant · 29/01/2021 17:14

None of the new interveners will be allowed to make oral submissions nor submit any fresh evidence. The court made the point that all of these parties could have sought permission to intervene in the original case, and that this was an appeal – not a fresh hearing.

My positive take on this is that the Court of Appeal might be being very permissive in relation to the requests of those against the decision so as to completely remove any scope they might have for a further appeal to the Supreme Court. It's not the door re-opening, it's the door being cleared of obstructions so it can be firmly closed.