Scottish Doctor in Shock Safeguarding Win! Murderer not having free surgery

[gardenbird48]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9596eeda-5e82-11eb-86a3-5d0f1154a22e?shareToken=b12227698e7bb455fef59c6c764fab74

I was relieved to see that a doctor actually considered the impact on his other patients of having a violent murderer on the ward with them and has decided that the risk assessment shows that it is not appropriate to continue.

There could be an eye on the bottom line, he is part of a private practice and that one patient could be a problem for all the other patients so the impact on the cash flow could be significant.

Interestingly, the patient has been 'living as a woman' for more than two years (they don't specify how they have achieved that) but blames their crimes (horrendous murder) on the fact that they are a woman trapped in a man's body. They seem to have had a terrible childhood, for which I have every sympathy, but I think they are misguided in blaming it on their transness.

Thank you ARoombaOfOnesOwn . I wonder if the £80,000 is just for the medical procedure or whether it includes all the additional costs of the prisons service accompanying a high risk prisoner to be in a public place like a hospital. Must be at least 4 prison officers plus accommodation, travel from Scotland to Brighton, etc for how many days / weeks? Not to mention all the back office / legal advice / protocols etc. Enraging given all the challenges the NHS and prison service face, especially at the current time.

IIRC that did include the security costs but I couldn’t say for definite. Not sure on the legal stuff. I agree with you though.

Last year a transman, who I think had a GRC, did a helpful “Ask me anything” thread on Mumsnet. I asked what did “living as a man” mean, apart from changing name and wearing traditionally other-sex clothes? Transman said that was pretty much it, really. Transman was friendly and polite, so I was too.

Thanks, that's interesting. So if a male prisoner wants to be called Jane instead of John, that would qualify as 'living as a woman'?

unfortunate sexual wishes (or highly violent wishes) to assault women or children (or other men)

Generally, rape is about power, not sex. It's a very very male crime - to use one's penis as a weaperson, is a power act, not a sexual act.on to assert dominance over someone you despise.

One only has to read the Relationships board, to read of the many many men who think that having sex is about their will, their desire. To inflict this on an unwilling person, is an act of power, not sexual desire.

@CaraDuneRedux Thank you. I think I was wondering, above all, about testosterone reduction. Too much of that hormone makes women violent. Measuring a group of men prisoners revealed the correlation between violent offences and that hormone was pretty direct. My interest was, instead of trying exclusively to boost oestrogen to counteract it, maybe removing the body's own factory would make sense?

If the surgery is n;ot too dear or complex, it would make a better long term fix. I read out of date stuff from I think Scandanavia, where some people appeared to be themselves horrified by their uncontrollable urge to offend. Child sex was one, but violence the other. Providing men with boobs by chemicals is the last thing one would want.

My study is not recent or detailed, so I appreciate your input thanks

Thanks, that's interesting. So if a male prisoner wants to be called Jane instead of John, that would qualify as 'living as a woman'?

As I understand it there are no requirements for 'living as a woman' other than saying you feel like a woman.

To obtain a GRC is different, then there is a 2 yr wait, dysphoria diagnosis, etc, plus afair evidence of having used a name typical to the opposite sex, etc. But in many instances organisations are effectively using self -ID, which has exactly no requirements at all. Police, for example, record crime according to self ID. I believe prison is one of these - I could be wrong, though.

fairplayforwomen.com/campaigns/prisons/

Lots of info on criteria etc above.

Incidentally the "chemicals" typically used as chemical castration are cross sex hormones

The drugs used for chemical castration are GnRH agonists (such as Lupron and Triptorelin) which are also used as 'puberty blockers' in children.

www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check-with-polly-curtis/2012/mar/13/prisons-and-probation-criminal-justice

In accordance with the Scottish Prison Service Policy which operated on the basis of gender identity and self-ID, this prisoner was housed in the female estate. After instances of sexually harassing and threatening women in prison, and a reported case where a woman feared she had become pregnant as a result of consensual sexual relations, the prisoner was moved to the male estate, after being transferred between different women's prisons. The intention was that this prisoner would await the reassignment surgery that the Scottish Prison Service had approved in the male estate before further decisions concerning location were made.

Now surgery appears to be off the table, what happens? Will this case be referred to another clinic? We know that prisoners with not dissimilar offending profiles have been successful in obtaining reassignment surgery whilst incarcerated. Does this prisoner get transferred back to the female estate?

*operates, not operated.

20mum, you said:

@CaraDuneRedux Thank you. I think I was wondering, above all, about testosterone reduction. Too much of that hormone makes women violent.

I'd be interested to know of studies that show that testosterone makes women violent. Is there a study I can look at? Where did you find the information?

Now surgery appears to be off the table, what happens? Will this case be referred to another clinic? We know that prisoners with not dissimilar offending profiles have been successful in obtaining reassignment surgery whilst incarcerated. Does this prisoner get transferred back to the female estate?

There are very few NHS options for penile inversion. Mr Thomas’ team in Brighton (3 urologists) and Mr Bellringer, Ms Rashid and Mr Morley at Parkside in London. Morley and Rashid also operate at Charing Cross hospital.

There was one dude up North (Fenton)!who retired recently and there are two more who don’t have NHS contracts (Inglefield in London, who is the one you see on the telly fairly often and Siepp in Wrexham, who doesn’t seem to advertise gender related stuff publicly).

So at the mo, almost all penile inversion surgeries, even NHS ones, are done at private hospitals. Presumably if Nuffield can risk assess and refuse a convicted murderer the other can too. Which only leaves the few monthly NHS slots at Charing X, and perhaps NHS Scotland aren’t able to refer to that one?

Of course, it could be facial feminisation surgery - NHS England won’t pay for that but NHS Scotland will on a case by case basis. FFS is available at Nuffield Brighton:

www.nuffieldhealth.com/hospitals/brighton/our-expert-gender-affirmation-team

As I understand it there are no requirements for 'living as a woman' other than saying you feel like a woman. Years ago knew a fab MtF transperson who definitely had Gender Dysphoria and she took knitting along to her psychological assessment sessions, along with wearing pearls, as her best shot at being a woman (absolutely brilliant to talk to on this subject and such a laugh). Many at Psychologists at that time were men, so what would they know.

She said that it was about hating her body rather than wanting to be a woman but woman is the only possibility. The full surgery was the only option for her.

Have the Guardian ran a sob story about this individual yet, playing up their right to have breasts like any other woman & playing down the crimes & aggression? I hope so, because it was the Guardian's unbearably misogynist reporting of two other trans identifying criminals a few years ago which woke me up to all this.

OldCrone I came across that article the other day. I wonder if the programme is still in operation?

Giving sex offenders drugs that can cause breast growth doesn't sound like a great idea when there is often an overlap of paraphilias.

Of course, it could be facial feminisation surgery - NHS England won’t pay for that but NHS Scotland will on a case by case basis.

Really? Do they also pay for elective cosmetic surgery for female prisoners?

"Consultant Surgeon Kutyerkokoff"
😂

@RozWatching

Of course, it could be facial feminisation surgery - NHS England won’t pay for that but NHS Scotland will on a case by case basis.

Really? Do they also pay for elective cosmetic surgery for female prisoners?

org.nhslothian.scot/FOI/RequestAndResponseRegister/FOIs/3112.pdf

Dunno about the ‘for prisoners’ bit, but it’s definitely something that NHS Scotland have funded for in the past, and I would imagine that anything that is NHS funded for the non-incarcerated would have to at least theoretically be available to prisoners as well (although as this news story attests, the theoretical may well not be available in practice).

Really? Do they also pay for elective cosmetic surgery for female prisoners?

I'll put £25 on 'no'.

So if a male prisoner wants to be called Jane instead of John, that would qualify as 'living as a woman'?

I think prisoners wear a uniform anyway, so presumably yes, as long as they get the new name onto some official document. Although as others have said here, prisons seem to be operating self-ID anyway.

Where are all the resident MRAs here being outraged on this one's behalf?

@gardenbird48

This person's trauma is what needs treating if they are to be rehabilitated.

this is it - the trans seems to be a symptom (and appears to be so for many people, especially the young). Coincidentally Paris Lees said they had a difficult childhood that resulted in them having sex in public toilets (I presume Paris meant with men) at age 14.

Meaningful (exploratory, non-affirmative) psychological support needs to be sought before hormones and surgery imo.

And also spent time in a YOP for their part in the death of an elderly man!

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1997/09/970927110900.htm

On testosterone, esp in females.

Where are all the resident MRAs here being outraged on this one's behalf?

It's interesting which threads don't attract certain posters, isn't it?

@Shedbuilder sorry it was a minor aside noticed during other research. Oh, but you might be able to find it in the info on women taking it to become more manly. It was fascinating to me to learn how some of them found themselves being assertive to the point of aggressive, lustful to the point of brain-fog, risk taking, domineering, and for those with a female partner, rather uncomfortable companions.

What I read was definitely in crime though. Women rarely are involved in crimes of violence, and of course there is a mental health aspect, but the simple measuring of testosterone would apparently map fairly neatly onto the criminal record. So, too, with male prisoners. There are those who are really to be pitied because they absolutely don't seem able to control themselves by will power and self control. Press the button; get the lashing out.

Now that blood tests are fairly straightforward, the check, and the opportunity to correct and rebalance, would be illuminating and useful for them and give them reasonable chances of avoiding future prison sentences

The women's prisons also had people who were pretty much deranged by their periods. That too would seem a good case for taking medical help to rebalance or to remove the hormone producing part of the body being overactive and causing all the trouble.