A transcript of a webinar between an unnamed bank and the ex-Chair of Stonewall, Jan Gooding, has been leaked.
Recently, Natwest has been at the centre of a row over women’s rights. Specifically, the corporation told a Government inquiry that it would support the removal of the need for married people to have a spouse’s consent to be legally recognised as the opposite sex. In response to this, Trans Widows’ Voices asked whether the bank’s customers and shareholders had been consulted on their political stance. Baroness Noakes, a former Shadow Secretary and ex-Director at Natwest, also expressed her disdain.
Although it is unknown whether Natwest is the bank involved in the webinar, it is fair to assume they received similar “advice” from Stonewall, and it is interesting to note from the transcript that one of the Co-Chairs for the undisclosed bank’s LGBT+ Network has “a partner who’s blocked by spousal veto” and therefore has a “personal stake in this.”
The transcript lays out certain views which will not come as a surprise to feminists or gender critical gay people. For example, Gooding (who, at the time of the meeting, was the outgoing Chair) does not have a very high opinion of the LGB Alliance. She stated:
“I find it shameful that even now one of the original, well a group of the original founders and supporters of Stonewall actually have set up what's essentially an anti-trans organisation called the LGB Alliance that was literally formed to campaign against any reform of the GRA and I think that tells you that within Stonewall I'm afraid I think there was a transphobic element.”
You’ll notice she very carefully doesn’t mention Simon Fanshawe, Kate Harris or Bev Jackson by name. She wouldn’t dare.
She also has a low opinion of Liz Truss.
“…..as long as Liz Truss is the Minister for Equalities I have absolutely no idea who she thinks she's representing because she, I've never heard her talk about race, I've not heard her do anything positive for trans people, she's being really weird on conversion therapy. I mean why is this woman, and I'm speaking very openly to you, I mean she's the most disastrous Equalities Minister so let's hope we get somebody new, but we at Stonewall now are regrouping on our strategy for the advance of everyday life of trans people and yes, that's going to be around trying to change the law…”
And, of course, it is JK Rowling’s fault Stonewall lost supporters. It has nothing to do with Stonewall becoming gender ideologues, claiming that men can be lesbians and that children with gender dysphoria should be affirmed as the opposite sex.
“I think we've got to really think about what campaigns we are going to run to win hearts and minds again, and get away from this ridiculous toxic tennis between JK Rowling and the rest of the world which is not helping anybody. It's superficial nonsense and no-one understands it and so we've got to regain that middle ground. We've lost people that we should never have lost because of the nature of the discourse.”
(Our insider said “Reading a transcript doesn't convey the spitting rage that came across in her voice. She is really angry about JKR.”)
Here, Gooding, either intentionally or unintentionally, completely misunderstands the very real concerns women have, and the arguments we make:
“I want to get the conversation around the everyday lives of transpeople and an understanding that they're no threat. They're not men dressed up as women, or women dressed up as men, they're not serial killers, they are not paedophiles, they are not predatory.”
The argument is not that people with gender dysphoria are statistically more predatory than those who do not experience the condition, but that they follow general societal patterns. However, increasingly people are seeing that expanding the definition of “woman” to include some males, has negative implications for the women occupying the current definition, due to the biological differences between males and females, the implications of which are prevalent in crime, safety, sports, equality, medicine, reproduction, and reality. Incidentally, studies have shown that males who identify as trans are no less likely to have male-pattern violence.
Why can’t women just be nice?
As part of a personal anecdote, Gooding appears to have a remarkable lack of empathy with a woman who confided in her when her husband declared he was gay…
“I remember there was a woman whose husband came out as gay and she was devastated and she wanted to talk to me about it because I had come out to a husband. It was quite odd because her homophobia was extraordinary. I mean I sat listening for an hour to this woman, I'm really glad I did the call, but there were moments on it when I thought "do you have any idea how offensive what you've just said is to me?" She described her shame and humiliation and what were the neighbours going to say and the children's lives were going to be destroyed.”
How inconsiderate of women not to celebrate and cheerlead their husbands “coming out” after realising their entire married life has been a lie, eh Jan?
Businesses influence government
The importance of having large corporations on side is well understood:
“Number 10 listen to business more than they listen to Stonewall.
It's going to be another decade and this bank and other corporates are absolutely critical allies. The power of your brand, the power of your reach, the power of your branches, the power of the customer experience that you choose to give. That beats anything that Stonewall can do.”
These corporations need to know that their customers will not put up with women’s rights being taken away under the guise of inclusiveness; that they will not put up with children being experimented on, and that they will not put up with their thoughts being policed and their speech compelled.
Infiltrating Schools
Stonewall have their eye on schools. but they plan to work around parents. If you’re familiar with the organisation’s “an Introduction to Supporting LGBT Children and Young People” guide, aimed at educators, it’s clear to see they have no qualms with completely disregarding the latest Department of Education guidelines. (See here some examples of how they breach this).
Here’s what Gooding had to say about primary schools:
“We really want to advance the sense of dignity and lived experience for trans people and that isn't just about changing the law, it's about health provision, education in schools which remains an absolutely core part of what Stonewall do, it's our roots, that was why we were formed and at the moment we are for the first time helping primary schools educate children about different kinds of families which is how we talk about it.
“In primary schools we’ve just started to do it now, so again it’s education packs and materials to get them into the hands of teachers and staff so they feel able with their governing bodies to formulate the relevant policies…”
“A couple of years ago we were given a grant by the government to do work in 250 Faith schools which was incredibly important….we can make the mistake of thinking of, you know, faith schools, absolutely hopeless. They vary enormously. So we’re not so much targeting parents, we’re really trying to influence school governors, the headteachers and staff themselves, who want to champion it…..that’s who we really want to educate and make them feel empowered so they’re not fearful of, you know, gender neutral toilets or whatever it is.”
“The primary school stuff is controversial because it's new and it's just started this year and we even have the joy of the LGB Alliance for heaven's sake even campaigning against us doing that. It's extraordinary. Section 28 was all about "you mustn't tell children that gay people exist". I mean what a ridiculous idea that you can't tell primary school children that their best friend at school might have same-sex parents or a trans parent. You know. It's absurd. It's that old stuff of like "it's catching". If you even tell people about it they'll catch it. (inaudible) ... thirty years. It's extraordinary.”
In the paragraph above, Gooding is using the Motte and Bailey fallacy. The easily defendable “motte” is an increased awareness of minority groups, aiding inclusiveness, and the controversial “bailey” is children being told there is such a thing as innate gender identity, and that this matters more than sex. The result of which is that children forgo what their eyes and ears tell them about somebody and ignore their instincts because people are always who they say they are. See “Brenda is a Sheep”- a book provided to young school children in Scotland - as an example.
Gooding also uses a common tactic utilised by trans’ rights activists; insinuating that trans activism is comparable with the gay civil rights movement. As we know, gay people and their allies fought for equal rights, such as parity in the age of consent, civil partnerships, and for same-sex marriage. Trans rights activism, however, involves advocating for the removal of rights from women and girls, by enabling men to be validated and treated as women in every aspect of life, just on their word. The two, therefore, are not comparable.
Call to action: I strongly recommend that if you have children in school, you email the Headteacher and Chair of Governors to request information about which organisations train their staff and provide resources, with regards to Relationship, Sex and Health Education, and to object to them using organisations such as Stonewall, which are not abiding by Department for Education guidelines.
I have prepared drafts to send to my child’s primary school. They can be found here.
As many prominent feminist campaigners and free speech advocates have communicated, Stonewall poses a risk to both freedom of expression and women’s rights. Excluding this organisation from public institutions is arguably key to pushing back against gender ideology and ultimately the erasure of women’s rights and the medicalisation of children and young people. Let’s do our bit to stop them.