Women Who Abuse - File on 4 - 19 January 8pm - BBC Radio 4.

[stumbledin]

Women Who Abuse
File on 4

Women are seen as the caring, nurturing sex, safe to be left in charge of children.

But stigma and stereotyping around female perpetrated abuse means it can be seen as a lesser crime, with many victims deeply reluctant to report their ordeal to the authorities.

Experts tell File on 4 that current case numbers are the ‘tip of the iceberg’, while the early indicators of abuse, like online grooming and social media befriending, can be brushed aside when the abuser is a woman.

File on 4 hears from adult survivors who describe decades of trauma and shame caused by their female abusers, as well as the difficulties they faced in reporting the crime.

Psychologists and campaigners say the criminal justice system urgently needs to better support victims to give evidence.

They describe how abusers are still able to take advantage of laws that leave children in informal settings, such as sports clubs and choirs, open to abuse, settings where female abusers can thrive.

And although societal perceptions of female child sexual abuse are changing, many deeply traumatised victims risk being left behind.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000rcq5

See existing thread on BBC report rather than tonights programme www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4140339-BBC-female-sex-offenders-report

No clarification on figures supplied of child abuse by women, whether any where trans women.

Now they are talking about rapes, when as someone pointed out on another thread that rape is specifically a crime that can only be carried out by someone with a penis. ie a man.

Figures include 382 - this is not questioned by the reporter.

• 382 rapes

Perhaps this is a subject More or Less should cover?

Longer thread here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4140339-BBC-female-sex-offenders-report

And yes, I pointed out on that other thread that of those 382 rapes, every single one will have been committed by someone with a penis because that's the legal definition of rape in the UK (Scotland as well as England and Wales - many moons ago, I actually took the time to look up the Scottish legislation).

CaraDuneRedux - yes I gave that link in my OP. I just thought some would only listen to the programme on want to comment on how that was put together.

I dont think many listeners would for one moment think that there may be an issue about whether or not trans women are included in the numbers given.

With the onslaught of language now used erasing women we need to monitor not only what is being said, but how it is presented.

I know mumsnet is very good and going into a lot of detail on issues, but most people will be skim reading articles, or have the radio on in the back ground etc..

And much as it is nice to be able to share with those who have similar views if all that happens is we endlessly share the awfulness of it all but that doesn't translate into any counter action we will still be having the same or worse conversation in 10 or 20 years.

As it happened I got interrupted and didn't here all of the programme, but definitely thought it should be fact checked.

But also want to say I dont in any way want to ignore of gloss over those who have suffered abuse, and because of cliched perceptions about women, not feel they even have the right to call it abuse.

@stumbledin

No clarification on figures supplied of child abuse by women, whether any where trans women.

I think it's very unlikely if these cases are going back decades.

Not decades. 2014 - 2019

@Melroses

Not decades. 2014 - 2019

From the OP...

File on 4 hears from adult survivors who describe decades of trauma and shame caused by their female abusers

I understand that a woman (without penis) could in fact be charged with rape as an accessory if it can be shown that she assisted the man (with penis) in the commission of the offence. I don’t know how common that would be but I’m aware of a case in Chester which made the press a few years ago - both the man and the woman were acquitted in that particular case. So I guess the figures for rape would include charges of that type.

File on 4 hears from adult survivors who describe decades of trauma and shame caused by their female abusers

The people they talked to about their experiences were cases covering decades - about 20 years. The figures they quoted were from FOI covering 2014-2019

@JemimaTab

I understand that a woman (without penis) could in fact be charged with rape as an accessory if it can be shown that she assisted the man (with penis) in the commission of the offence. I don’t know how common that would be but I’m aware of a case in Chester which made the press a few years ago - both the man and the woman were acquitted in that particular case. So I guess the figures for rape would include charges of that type.

That covers about 2 of the nearly 300 cases.

Many countries have rape defined as assault by penetration so it doesn’t have to be a penis doing the penetration. Was this show only about U.K.?

England & Wales

Then could the 382 “rapes” actually be assault by penetration? Obviously journalists are going to have an agenda and for decades now activists have been trying to get the UK to recognise assault by penetration as a type of rape.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Many countries have rape defined as assault by penetration so it doesn’t have to be a penis doing the penetration. Was this show only about U.K.?

I think it was specifically about the rise in recorded numbers in the UK.

I agree the UK is out of step with the rest of the world on this one. But while we live in a topsy turvy world where male sex offending is being attributed to women, it's useful to have one handle on what the true figures are, split by sex. (There's also an in principle reason for recording penile penetration as a separate offence, as it can result in pregnancy or STD transmission, so has additional traumatic consequences for the victim over and above the horrible trauma suffered by a victim of assault by penetration.)

Female sex offending is a problem - incest, child abuse and adult women molesting teen boys are genuine issues. But the point made upthread that you can't really address the issues without accurate stats is an important one. The stats need to be recorded by sex. By all means record offenders' self professed gender identity as well - that would I think help to answer some important questions about offending patterns.

Of course we need to acknowledge that some women abuse. If we can't name it, we can't tackle it.
But it's catastrophic that, just as with so many other aspects of society at the moment, the activities of highly influential, yet unrepresentative lobby groups have been able to corrupt our language, data and reality so that we can no longer be certain of identity, causation and therefore appropriate responses.
The casualties will as usual be children and the vulnerable. It appears that with all our organisations being captured by these groups, there will need to be a mountain of harmed children and adults before any of them notice the damage that these dystopian approaches are causing.

Is there a way to search for all of those cases of female rape, so we can find out about the identity of the person who was accused or convicted?

@CaraDuneRedux
Yes completely agree the statistics should be recorded by sex for perpetrator and victim. Gender is a cluster fuck of a mess and you can’t draw any conclusions using that in data gathering.

I think it’s more likely that the journalist is using inflammatory language and calling the 382 cases “rape” (even though that is legally not correct, they are assault by penetration) than it is for all of those 382 cases to be pre-op transwomen using their penis.

I’ve read the BBC report and followed the link to the ONS where they got their figures, and the ONS says that child sex abuse is recorded by police forces in 3 categories:
“Three types of sexual abuse are defined by the CSEW: non-contact sexual abuse, rape or assault by penetration (including attempts), and other contact sexual abuse.”

So that figure of 382 rapes done by female perpetrators (not sure if recorded by sex or gender) most probably represents a name shortening of the category which has a full name of rapes or assaults by penetration including attempts.
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/childsexualabuseinenglandandwales/

@PlanDeRaccordement

I think it’s more likely that the journalist is using inflammatory language and calling the 382 cases “rape” (even though that is legally not correct, they are assault by penetration) than it is for all of those 382 cases to be pre-op transwomen using their penis.

The problem is that we don't know. Therefore the statement that women carried out 382 rapes is incorrect and because we don't know how those forces have defined women in this context we don't know if there is male pattern offending mixed in here. It doesn't help anyone to be in this situation, certainly not the victims.