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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

De facto relationships

86 replies

Puddinger · 16/01/2021 20:00

In Australia, if you've been living with your partner for 2 years, you have the same legal status as if you were married (de facto marriage), but it sounds like in the UK you can live with someone for 20 years and it means nothing!

I feel bad because there are all these threads from mothers who are living in a partnership with kids and everyone is saying oh no you are financially vulnerable. Why should they be? Why shouldn't they get compensation for liss of income, for example, if the relationship ends or access to their partner's pension? Do people not see this as a feminist issue?

OP posts:
burnoutbabe · 17/01/2021 08:58

It's this view of one party being the reluctant one.

We are unmarried. I own the house, he did have 2 and sold then so money in the bank, both gave good pensions. No kids so want our money to go to our respective nephews/nieces on our deaths.

Now we don't want to marry as that would screw up all that financial independence. The courts on a divorce could override any decision we make. Unlikely but within their power.

So no upside for marriage for us, just financial downside. But that shouldn't mean we should split after 2 years. We have discussed it many times. We both know where we stand.

The version where you sign up got tax benefits and agree support, don't we have the support side here anyway, I know I can't claim any benefits due to living together if I had no job, as his salary savings are too much. So that part is covered anyway.

Winesalot · 17/01/2021 09:36

If I remember rightly, before the 80s, in Australia there were no rights conferred to ‘common law’ relationships. At all. The De Facto laws came into being with the decline of popularity for marriage and the increase of living together becoming an option with out the stigma.

Remember in the 80s in Australia, there was a lot of stigma in some families about ‘living together’. Many families would refuse to accept de facto partners rights.

I have seen the both the pros and cons of this law actually. It does make people who decide to cohabitate make a conscious choice after a while, because it is not a new law, most people are now aware of the repercussions. There are less ‘trapped’ now that it has been in for so long. If not, then definitely an awareness campaign needs to be done to make sure people realise there is a legal implication to the arrangement. And it needs to be a conscious choice

For a period of time even after it came in, military people still had to get married to claim entitlements (such as living arrangements and moving allowances etc). It was only maybe mid 90s de facto relationships were treated equally in the forces. I think it was similar in other occupations where to keep you job you had to move where you were sent including teachers, police etc (there may be more flexibility offered now but there was none in the 80s).

It works well when the relationship ends acrimoniously or is abusive. And of course, there needs to be proof of the relationship.

It also takes into consideration superannuation which also become a guaranteed right in the 80s. (The government at the time told my generation not to expect a government pension as we needed to provide for ourselves through this compulsory super with our own contributions effectively).

Of course, splitting of assets is based on how long a couple have been together etc. just like a divorce. There is a lot of fear spread about it being 50/50 straight away but it has not been the case in the states I have lived in.

I have also seen it work when no wills have been left and the deceased family refuse to acknowledge the relationship. Even today, with the family siding with an ex and ignoring the partner of the last decade. Even for next of kin decisions in those situations.

I get the ‘forced decision’ argument, but having grown up with the law in place, I also have seen situations where it offers protection. I would also think there is now enough knowledge of the law domestically that people now work with it. I know my nieces recently have had to rely on the protections the laws offer while ‘saving up’ for their dream weddings, that keep being moved after the babies have been born, Because in their cases those glamour weddings are like a prize Hmm and no advice to the contrary was welcome.

Conversely, there are contracts (Binding Financial Agreement) where couples can consciously state how they want assets and finances to be treated at the time the relationship finishes. But, I don’t have any experience with them. I am sure there are plenty who can discuss if and how they work.

So, yes. You can move in together and still protect your assets and pension etc. It just means that is then the conscious decision you make, if you see what I mean.

Like any law though, if it is no longer applicable or it works in a way that undermines the intention, it needs changing to suit the current needs of the population.

EarthSight · 17/01/2021 10:06

@GCITC

I think the problem is that society now sees marriage as 'a piece of paper' and women are still shamed if they dare ask a man to marry.

Women need educating on what marriage actually means and the legal benefits you gain if you leave work to have children.

Marriage needs to stop being demonised.

One of the funniest things is when people say 'it doesn't matter' 'it's just a piece of paper'. Ok then. If it's just a piece of paper, there would be no reason not to get married then. Just a bare ceremony in a register office. Done in an afternoon and no one has to know except the witnesses which can be strangers. If someone doesn't like that idea, fine, but I'm done with people saying things don't matter when they clearly do.

For example, while ago some people from work were getting their feathers flustered because they weren't happy at all with an article they'd seen in a tabloid. The piece said that people had complained that a supermarket was using a symbol of a women (skirt wearing symbol) to illustrate what to do with a trolley, instead of an unisex or man symbol. The complaint was that it was sexist as both men & women now shop for food. My young colleagues were saying that was ridiculous, over the top PC kind of stuff, and then dismissed it before saying 'what does it matter anyway'??? Well, it clearly matters because otherwise it wouldn't have stirred them up to disagree!!

YepCuntyIsTaken · 17/01/2021 10:55

@VikingVolva

Yes it is a feminist issue.

Everyone should consent to marriage, not find themselves in a legal contract to which they had not consented, and people should be free to live together without a legal ties.

What is needed is a considerably better component in the (existing) SRE curriculum covering the legal differences between marriage, CP and cohabitation; done in a way which empowers young people to decide what it is that they want and not settle forna faked future.

I agree.

They have the same law in New Zealand and it's turned out to be a disaster for many woman I know. They've been tied up lost assets (as in their homes) to boyfriends they've cohabitated with. And not even had children with.

Hazelnutlatteplease · 17/01/2021 11:01

Hell no!!!

I dont want a man having a claim to my property because I choose to live with him for 2 years. Bloody depressing to think you couldn't have a relationship for longer than 2 years and safe guard my DCs home.

Marriage absolutely should be an active choice.

Winesalot · 17/01/2021 11:23

Again, there are agreements to protect assets etc. It means it should be a conscious decision at all levels and that these decisions are discussed for all contingencies.

CaraDuneRedux · 17/01/2021 12:24

We do need a lesson in school to the effect of:

"Not married? He gets hit by a bus. It's his mum and dad who get to say when and if the medics pull the plug on his life support, not you. (Unless you and he went to the trouble of giving each other power of attorney)."

"Not married? Live in the SE? Own a house? He (or you) get hit by a bus. Congratulations, his half of the house is now liable for inheritance tax, and this may mean you have to sell up. (And this is the one that there is no other paperwork which will replicate the protections of being married)."

"Not married? Moved into his house? Spent 10 years paying half the mortgage because that's what felt fair? Had kids and gone part time, then set the childcare costs of the other half time against your salary (because you were the one that wanted to continue to work), rather than the joint income (even though the childcare and you being home half the week enabled him to go out to work)? Now you've split... congratulations, you get nothing. (You could have avoided this by getting put on the mortgage, becoming tenants in common and specifying who got what in the event of a split)"

"Not married? Gave up your career and got a part time pin money job to spend 20 years bring up your joint kids? He trades you in for a younger model just as you're nearing retirement age, a retirement you were planning on both of you enjoying with his occupational pension... Congrats, hope you can make it through to state pension age on universal credit, because you have no claim on his pension."

Kids need to be taught this stuff - repeatedly - in school.

Marriage is not about a pouffy white dress. It is not about "princess for a day". It's not even about leurve and happily ever after (though love should be a necessary precondition, and if you're not hoping for happily ever after, you probably shouldn't be getting married - or indeed staying in a long term relationship and having kids with someone).

It is first and foremost a legal contract.

That legal contract gives you rights, confers protections, and saddles you with obligations towards the other person. You need to think about all this.

And it does so within the context of a patriarchal, capitalist society which values paid employment outside the home and gives no brownie points and certainly no monetary compensation for women's unpaid caring labour within the family.

Default partnerships tinker with this shit round the edges. They are a sticking plaster which benefit some young women at the expense of older women who've made sensible financial decisions. They don't actually fix the way society screws over women because of their child-bearing capability.

FinallyHere · 17/01/2021 12:30

We should get rid of the whole mrs / miss, changing surnames, the 'virginal' white wedding dress and the corny vows.

We had no children and wills in each other's favour. When I realised that IHT would be due on the half of our home inherited from the other (SE, nothing special but still above the then £325k limit). reader I married him.

Country house weekend, registrar came to us. There was not a meringue dress, changed family name or corny vow in sight. I never did change my name and had never used either Miss or Mrs. Simples.

I am however an old gimmer who picked up knowledge about this stuff in the 1970's. I am very sorry that so many people still do jot seem to know about it fifty years later.

Winesalot · 17/01/2021 12:54

Yes Cara.

I know that I seem to be going against the flow of the thread but there really are pluses and problems with both options.

At least with the automatic protection offered there is a safety net. By all means, have more education so that every Australian knows that it does need to be a considered choice moving in together.

Make sure that prior assets are protected where again it is by choice with future provisions made for all eventualities.

It was put there for protection for people who did not want to get married at the time when there was NO protection in place . It breaks my heart to see some of the posts about situations that Cara had posted. An attempt to provide for those contingencies, however clumsy/invasive it seems to others, does have merit in at least in its attempts. It also provided some protection for same sex relationships (not all the protections) well before marriage was legalized.

CaraDuneRedux · 17/01/2021 12:58

I agree Wines - whichever system you go for some people (and most of them will be women) get screwed over. And the root of that problem is that women's unpaid labour is invisible, uncompensated and leaves them extremely financially vulnerable.

Hazelnutlatteplease · 17/01/2021 13:00

We do need a lesson in school to the effect of:...

You also need to teach:

Married? Husband runs up credit card debt, you can be liable despite having no right of access to his account.

Married? Own your own property prior to marriage? He has a claim to that property

Give up your career to early in your marriage? Protection wont stand as it is considered a short marriage.

I do agree we need to be teaching it's a legal contract, but we need to be teaching all sides of it.

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