Men's rights to single sex spaces?

[JamMakingWannaBe]

Genuine question, as a learning feminist.

Do men have the same "sex based" rights as women?

I'm thinking not, (and I might be wrong) therefore what is the problem with transmen and transwomen using a joint men/trans toilet and leaving the female toilet for women only?

I understand in terms of a changing facility a third space may be required, but in terms of toilet facilities, do men have rights, in law, to a single sex space?

Yes of course, based on the EA2010, men have sex based rights too and the exemptions for groups/clubs and spaces applies to men and boys as it applies to women and girls.

I know a man who has shared a men's toilet with a trans man and didn't have a problem with it but has he done so he would have been able to raise it as an issue if he felt it necessary.

Though he didn't have an issue he understands why I would, should the situation be reversed and it was a trans woman in a women's toilet for example.

fb.watch/2VJMqz50Gt/

Why wouldn’t men have the right to privacy too? Not everyone is happy with the opposite sex seeing them naked.

But legally I believe that there is no law prohibiting a man from entering the ladies toilets.

From a TRA perspective TW aren't safe in the men's.

@Doyoumind

From a TRA perspective TW aren't safe in the men's.

To be fair, they probably are less safe around other men, given the prevalence of male violence. But this isn’t women’s problem to solve.

@Doyoumind

From a TRA perspective TW aren't safe in the men's.

Gay men are vulnerable, elderly men are vulnerable, disabled men are vulnerable, Ethnic minorities are vulnerable, homeless men are vulnerable - It’s a male violence problem.

And yet if a 15 year old female identifies as a man, some people suggest they should use the men’s toilets, dorms, changing rooms etc....the previously unsafe space.

And yet if a 15 year old female identifies as a man, some people suggest they should use the men’s toilets, dorms, changing rooms etc....the previously unsafe space.

I think it’s far more likely that ‘he’ himself will want to use these spaces.

Women have the right to privacy and dignity for their own safety. Men have the right to privacy and dignity for parity.

Yes, men can set up single-sex spaces like women if it can be justified. There are mental health support groups that are for men only. They may decide they don't want trans men included because it's a space for men to discuss sensitive issues and most males wouldn't be comfortable discussing it if females were around.

@GodOfPhwoar

And yet if a 15 year old female identifies as a man, some people suggest they should use the men’s toilets, dorms, changing rooms etc....the previously unsafe space.

I think it’s far more likely that ‘he’ himself will want to use these spaces.

Given that the 15 year old female will be very obviously female this could be very upsetting for some men as well as putting the female in danger.

How to predict how a man who is distressed or embarrassed by this invasion of his privacy might react in these circumstances? Some might get aggressive. Others, as reported in an earlier thread (someone else might remember where to find it) would act protectively.

In the incident mentioned in a previous thread, a young teenager presented herself at the urinal next to a man and inserted a She-Wee into her trousers. IIRC the man took his time washing his hands to make sure she was safe until she left. I think this was daytime in a town toilet rather than a nightclub, which is a more likely setting for socially transgressive behaviour.

This sort of behaviour by young females is both risky and profoundly disrespectful, just as disrespectful as men using The Ladies. That applies whether the girl/woman is using a urinal in The Gents because she thinks she is a boy/man or because there is a long queue for The Ladies.

I hold my hand up and confess that I have occasionally dived into a cubicle in an unoccupied Gents Toilets in desperation but it takes things to a different level to stroll up next to a strange man using the urinals and nonchalantly whip out a SheWee.

If a man might be prosecuted under the Public Order Act 1986 for causing distress to women, by entering The Ladies and rummaging in his flies in full view of any woman present, then there should be no reason why an obvious female should not be prosecuted for doing the same in The Gents.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/64/section/5

I think many (most?) people, male and female, would not regard it as a sign of “bigotry” (yawn) to suggest that a girl/young woman routinely using public urinals might be deserving of compassion and in need of psychological help, rather than applause for “bravery”.

My husband says he would not at all feel comfortable sharing toilets and gym changing rooms with teenage FtM transitioners.

Someone on here once mentioned - though I don't know how true it is - that female to male transitioners usually apply for a key to access the disabled toilets. I think the poster said it was a bit of a rite of passage.

Another poster said that she had the job of allocating shared dorm rooms to university students. FtM students were usually clear about their trans status when they applied for residence so they could be allocated their own room. (This was not often the case with FtM transitioners, apparently.)

The impression I have is that FtM transitioners are less likely to want access to male-only spaces. We can all speculate as to the reasons why.

Given how many men who are neither disabled nor have a child with them who go onto use the disabled/family public toilets, I don't think even men want to use the men's toilets.

Given that the 15 year old female will be very obviously female this could be very upsetting for some men as well as putting the female in danger.

How to predict how a man who is distressed or embarrassed by this invasion of his privacy might react in these circumstances? Some might get aggressive. Others, as reported in an earlier thread (someone else might remember where to find it) would act protectively.

In the incident mentioned in a previous thread, a young teenager presented herself at the urinal next to a man and inserted a She-Wee into her trousers. IIRC the man took his time washing his hands to make sure she was safe until she left. I think this was daytime in a town toilet rather than a nightclub, which is a more likely setting for socially transgressive behaviour.

This sort of behaviour by young females is both risky and profoundly disrespectful, just as disrespectful as men using The Ladies. That applies whether the girl/woman is using a urinal in The Gents because she thinks she is a boy/man or because there is a long queue for The Ladies.

I hold my hand up and confess that I have occasionally dived into a cubicle in an unoccupied Gents Toilets in desperation but it takes things to a different level to stroll up next to a strange man using the urinals and nonchalantly whip out a SheWee.

If a man might be prosecuted under the Public Order Act 1986 for causing distress to women, by entering The Ladies and rummaging in his flies in full view of any woman present, then there should be no reason why an obvious female should not be prosecuted for doing the same in The Gents.

^www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/64/section/5^

I think many (most?) people, male and female, would not regard it as a sign of “bigotry” (yawn) to suggest that a girl/young woman routinely using public urinals might be deserving of compassion and in need of psychological help, rather than applause for “bravery”.

I don’t disagree with some of your points, but I still believe most FtM individuals will prefer to use the toilet of their chosen sex.

My point was that it’s not so much that ‘some people suggest’ they should use these spaces as the fact that they themselves want to use them.

Well put Mole.

Even if FtM transitioners used the Men's because they chose to, it's still disrespectful as well as potentially dangerous.

Can't imagine a young FtM, fresh out of college could stand up to many 30+ year old men who might not be woke enough to accept what's going on. Some of those men might get violent.

To some extent the FtM is protected by the very unexpectedness of the behaviour. You could say the men's toilets is the last place a predatory male might be expecting targets to be.

It's a "surprise!" mixed-sex situation for the male, unlike a male going into a female toilet, or an officially mixed-sex toilet.

Biggest danger would be someone following the FtM in. That would be a waving a red flag to them - "a lone female entering a male toilet that I can also enter without suspicion? Let's go have a look see if anyone else is in there..."

Yes there should be, even though the impact of a male-only space being accessed by a woman is more than likely much less than a women-only space being accessed by a man.

Men have the right to privacy and dignity as much as women.

There have been a couple of men's mental health support groups set up after a spate of suicides locally. It's amazing how much support they have received but the single sex female group was repeatedly asked "but what about men" when they set up shop.

Men should have the right to single sex spaces and services. When my father was frail disabled and in hospital he responded much better to male nurses and carers. Not a bit because he was sexist in any way but because he was an old school gentleman respectful of women and to him he felt very uncomfortable receiving intimate care from female staff because he felt bad that they had to do it and he was far more willing to receive mobility help from a younger man and also ask them for help and admit he needed assistance. Whereas he would struggle on rather than ask a slightly built female carer or nurse for help . And every male friend of mine would feel very concerned and embarrassed if a transman entered the gents and would be concerned for their welfare and safety and certainly would not feel comfortable in any way in a changing room where they or the transman were naked especially a young teenager. Decent men respect other people’s boundaries

But legally I believe that there is no law prohibiting a man from entering the ladies toilets.

There is no general law prohibiting anyone from entering a toilet (just as there are no laws that prevent under 21s entering night clubs).

However, there are laws that make it legal in some circumstances to prevent a person from entering a space on the basis of sex or age.

I think you'll find the third space option to be thoroughly rejected by tra so it's not really an option. It is however, quite telling on why these demands are being made.
It's taken DH 10 years to come to terms with the physical evidence my period brings. 10 years ago he couldn't even bring himself to say the word tampon. I don't think a male toilet is thus the best place for a transman when the female body makes them that uncomfortable.
Obviously, we should work towards dismantling the disgust at women's body functions as it is inherently sexist, but I don't think taking away men's privacy and confronting them with our reality is the way to do it.

Do men have the same "sex based" rights as women?
Yes, sex is a protected characteristic. So men have sex-based rights, for example;

• A men only support group for male cancers.
• Protection against discrimination at work on the grounds of sex. (There are exemptions, so for example if you are a disabled woman and you advertise for a female carer, that is not discriminating against men.)

what is the problem with transmen and transwomen using a joint men/trans toilet and leaving the female toilet for women only?
Trans activists don't want this, they want the validation of using the toilet of their choice.

Toilets are separated on the grounds of sex, not gender identity. so people should use the toilet that corresponds with their sex. Women have women only toilets for reasons of biology, privacy and safety. Men never miscarry or deal with period flooding, so shouldn't use the women's toilets as women have the right to expect privacy.

Incidentally, there aren't any known records of assaults by men on trans women using mens toilets. There are multiple incidents of trans women and men assaulting and spying on women in womens and mixed sex toilets.

The Equality Act and the Gender Recognition Act are published online, and they are worth reading.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/contents

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/contents

Women have women only toilets for reasons of biology, privacy and safety. Men never miscarry or deal with period flooding, so shouldn't use the women's toilets as women have the right to expect privacy.

‘Privacy’ also means something different if you are female because men don’t need to undress to urinate.

Men aren’t at risk from women the way we are from men. As far as I’m aware the religious issues with women not being allowed to change near men etc affect only women not men- so if a ftm walked into the men’s other men wouldn’t be in breach of their religious rules iirc (although I haven’t checked in detail so perhaps this is an issue).

I would imagine the likes of preteen/teen boys would not be always comfortable with changing along side mtf, but otherwise I can’t imagine many men are overly concerned with mtf trans people in their spaces. Other than concern for the woman herself and the worry over needing to physically defend her if other men attacked her. Plenty of men aren’t violent or confrontational or comfortable with physical violence with other men. It’s not ok they’d be left in that position of potentially getting beaten up or letting a woman get attacked. That would likely be a significant concern of many men.

Single sex exceptions come into play with many other things too- would men be ok being unable to request a male hcp for a prostrate exam or for personal care if their age or disabilities required them to need someone to bath and toilet them? Would men who have been sexually assaulted be comfortable with their men’s support group now including women? When discussing very personal aspects of that or aspects that are specific only to men? Teen boys taking cage fighting classes where fights are separated by sex suddenly being expected to using equal force on a physically female teen girl maybe be significantly uncomfortable. Toilets and changing rooms aren’t the only thing single sex remaining single sex influences.

I’ve often thought that one of the things that might shut this all gender toilet shit down is if men wake up to the fact that they will be at risk of so—called called false accusations.

Because of course nearly ALL rape and sexual assaults allegations are made by bitter women to punish innocent men. Once they realise that they will be affected then y won’t be so keen to give away their rights on a plate.

As far as I’m aware the religious issues with women not being allowed to change near men etc affect only women not men- so if a ftm walked into the men’s other men wouldn’t be in breach of their religious rules iirc

Thats not the case.