Should the GRA be repealed?

[Apollo440]

The original purpose of the GRA was to allow someone transitioning to get married (effectively same sex) at a time when it wasn't possible to do so. Thankfully times have changed and this is no longer an issue. Is the GRA still required? Discuus

Interesting question, OP. What is the purpose of this law, now that equal marriage is legal?

i'd like to know as well

GRC - how do you know it was for that purpose?

Twitter thread with excerpts from the parliamentary debates which led to the GRA.

mobile.twitter.com/HairyLeggdHarpy/status/1049289194370002945

The avoidance of legalising same sex marriage was the main reason the GRA was passed. Parliament decided it was more acceptable to pretend that people could change sex than simply allow two people of the same sex to marry.

We know that a person can't change sex. A person's sex will always be relevant and a record should be kept - for medical treatment, crime reporting, admission to certain sports categories, applicability to dating sites based on sexual orientation, and many other things.

@NotTerfNorCis

I assume that’s the royal “we” you’re referring to. You don’t speak for me.

Some interesting points made here, mostly that a GRC isn't needed to change documents like your driving license, passport etc, but you do need a GRC to change your birth certificate so I'm not sure what purpose it serves, as a driving license and passport can be used as proof of ID, with a photo.

Now I know so much more since the public consultation I do think it should be repealed. It created a legal fiction that women weren't not informed about and didn't get a chance to feed back on.

Debbie on the thread thinks it should be 'abolished' but also thinks that's unlikely.

Why do you think so few people have applied for / acquired a GRC? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4132641-Why-do-you-think-so-few-people-have-applied-for-acquired-a-GRC

@Balhammom No I don't speak for genderists.

But most people know you can't actually change sex.

"Should the GRA be repealed?"
Of course it should! It's a nonsense!
The notion of "gender" is ridiculous. That it's enacted in law is actually quite terrifying.

Aren’t there loads of silly laws that haven’t been abolished? Like being legal to shoot a Welshman with a bow from the turret of your castle on a market Sunday, or whatever it was.

How would you know he was a Welshman? He might identify as English. Or indeed as a She?

I do think it's interesting that no parent, in particular a mother, has ever challenged an application for a GRC. (As far as I know).
I assume because they don't want to upset their child. However, I gave birth to two daughters. I raised two little girls. Two young women. That is my history, both social and biological. If one of them wished to wipe out the truth of my history and have their birth certificate changed I would oppose it in court.

It's a shame this has never happened although one can imagine why.

@TheLoneRager

How would you know he was a Welshman? He might identify as English. Or indeed as a She?

I’m not sure identity politics existed a few hundred years ago...

@TheLoneRager

I do think it's interesting that no parent, in particular a mother, has ever challenged an application for a GRC. (As far as I know). I assume because they don't want to upset their child. However, I gave birth to two daughters. I raised two little girls. Two young women. That is my history, both social and biological. If one of them wished to wipe out the truth of my history and have their birth certificate changed I would oppose it in court.

It's a shame this has never happened although one can imagine why.

Surely an adult should have agency to make decisions like that without their mummy turning up and saying no.

@BettyFloop

"Should the GRA be repealed?" Of course it should! It's a nonsense! The notion of "gender" is ridiculous. That it's enacted in law is actually quite terrifying.

Gender, the idea that whether someone is a woman or man is defined by social constructs and stereotypes rather than basic biology, is intrinsically sexist and regressive.

A man having characteristics that are traditionally considered feminine, like a taste for long hair, makeup and dresses or even a desire for plastic surgery, does not mean that he’s any less valid as a man, and the idea that those characteristics should mean he’s made to feel unsafe in male spaces or should be reclassified as a woman is outrageous.

Plus the GRA being introduced in order to avoid same-sex marriage shows that it was an act of homophobia.

I think we should be working towards a society that’s enlightened enough to dispose of ‘gender’ altogether and simply let people present however they choose, without that having any effect on their biological sex. And then repealing the GRA would be no problem because we simply wouldn’t need it. Why aren’t groups like Stonewall and Mermaids already pushing for that?

The GRA should be repealed because it is a bad law which mandates belief. Under the GRA, people are required to affirm and act according to a specific belief, even when they do not hold that belief. Non-believers are forbidden to express their experiences of material reality. The GRA denies people their human rights to freedom of belief and expression. The GRA legitimises a godless theocracy. It must go.

What happened to the thread on this yesterday?
I was it on but it's vanished from my "TIO" so no deletion message either?

Apparently it was reported numerous times? Surprising to think that threads discussing British laws are reportable but as they say - every day's a school day on Mumsnet. Anyway - best not mention it so this thread doesn't become a TAAT.

Oh, my post was hidden presumably because it contained the link.

I also said that I had a deletion message. The reason given was that the OP came here specifically to post about the site, and that's a nono.
I take it that any post containing the link will be hidden.

Yes, I’d support repeal.

The law is a relic from a more homophobic time. The point about ‘it’s not just their history’ is also good one. A birth certificate is a historical record of the relationship between several people, not modifiable personal property of one person.

I’m reminded of the recent case of the father who wanted to change his child’s time of birth so he wouldn’t be born in 2020, citing his ‘authority’. This was denied as he doesn’t have authority over objective facts - neither do those seeking to change the fact of their sex observed at birth.

this is bad law for a number of key reasons

• it mandates belief, attempting to force people into colluding with the pretence that a holder of a GRC has changed sex

• it has it's basis in homophobia - in 2004 our lawmakers preferred to pass a law allowing people to pretend to change sex rather than introduce same sex marriage

• it is inherently sexist, codifying as it does the sexist concept of 'gender identity' in our laws

• it is clearly confusing, having led many, many organisation to breach the equality act, thinking they were complying with the GRA

It effectively brings back punishment for heresy, and such homophobia and sexism has no place in our laws.

It absolutely should be repealed, and citizens who want to discuss that should be able to do so without being censored.

I look forward to materially supporting the campaign launched yesterday to repeal the GRA. In a civilised country citizens should be able to lobby for law changes, and good heavens @MNHQ, they should be allowed to discuss it shouldn't they?

My views on this have definitely shifted over the last 5-10yrs. From "it's a harmless legal fiction to help seriously unhappy, but not dangerous, men" to "its a dangerous legal fiction that puts women and children at risk of serious harm and might only help a tiny minority by doing so" . Two main issues for me

The importance of knowing birth sex for medical purposes should take priority. Sex matters when it comes to blood donations, transplants, medication....

The fact that we know sexual predators will exploit any opportunity to abuse - this hands them a free pass to previously safe spaces for women and children.

People should be able to dress how they choose, call themselves any name they want, but I now have serious questions about the value for society of this legal fiction.

Not sure if I've reached the "repeal" point though.

Malalhaha in that case it might be better to pick up the discussion in an earlier thread on the exact same topic that has been resurrected:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3941154-should-the-gra-be-repealed?

If you think that this new thread has been started in bad faith for screenshots then it might be better to report the OP post and include in your report the link that you mentioned.

How do I report a post on Talk?

Reporting a post is easy. Click on 'report post' to the right of each post and it will bring up a new box for you to let MNHQ know why you want to report it.

www.mumsnet.com/info/faqs

(Those are the Desktop instructions. On mobile, see the three dots next to “Bookmark”. No idea about the App, I’ve never used it.)