Today R 4

[Angryresister]

Professor Alice Sullivan doing a good job talking about the need for sex categories in the Scottish Census. Interesting the person proposing that sex should be omitted , did acknowledge that this information was important in a health context. Just before 8 am

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_radio_fourfm

7:50

That was especially clear. She did a good job of getting the message across that there was a question about sex that could be answered with gender identity and a separate question about gender identity that could be answered with gender identity.

She was up against Ciarán McFadden-Young* whose main argument was that the characteristic of sex is gathered accurately in other contexts and so the census should be used to validate feelings rather than gather accurate information.

• www.napier.ac.uk/people/ciar%C3%A1n-mcfadden-young

Lots of people use the census for all sorts of research, if they are working from the census and don't go anywhere else, it will be incorrect, regardless how they argue. Unless every piece of research carries a caveat

And they will infer that more people are non binary than are because of GC people not identifying with a gender which will affect collection of data for people who are trans or non binary.

I thought Professor Sullivan did a brilliant job too. Didn't hear the very beginning of the piece but I thought the interviewer asked some helpful questions, such as 'why not have questions on both "sex" and "gender identity"?

Frustrating that it was quite short and that McFadden-Young was allowed the last word (though obviously not surprising for the BBC).

To conclude, he basically said that, in regards to collecting data on the gender pay gap, there is no need to separate out sex and gender identity because trans women experience exactly the same level of discrimination as women.

Not enough time for anyone to raise the obvious point - how do you know this unless you collect the data separately?

It was very strange hearing him argue that the only time biological sex data needs to be collected is for medical reasons.

Someone send him a copy of Invisible Women.

Not enough time for anyone to raise the obvious point - how do you know this unless you collect the data separately?

I am sure that was being shouted at the radio up and down the country!

I was so annoyed by the academic from Napier who waved away chromosomes as irrelevant. We know young transmen taking testosterone are at much higher likelihood of needing gynae treatment for vaginal atrophy, investigation for pelvic pain and hysterectomy than other women of a similar age, as well as mastectomy. If you collect accurate sex and gender identity data along with age, health commissioners can plan gynae and breast surgery services to support those needs and managing a quite different patient cohort. If they are hidden in the male census data, they are invisible. This has an adverse impact on all women in an area with large numbers of transmen, not just the transmen. If TRAs were really serious about providing excellent healthcare for transmen and transwomen, they wouldn’t be pushing for this.

You have to question the point of the census when really core data are so compromised. Perhaps we should be allowed to report how old we feel rather than our chronological age on the census too. It’s an expensive pointless folly once you start allowing stuff like this.

It made me think of needing to collect accurate data over time. Back in the late 80s discussion about children born outside of marriage involved research that such children did less well than those from within marriages.
Obviously, as marriage became less common the research needed to be done again to reflect the different landscape.

Even if his comments were true now, we are going through a period of change where more people identify as the opposite sex or as non-binary. We still need the actual sex data to be able to do research in the future.

To conclude, he basically said that, in regards to collecting data on the gender pay gap, there is no need to separate out sex and gender identity because trans women experience exactly the same level of discrimination as women.

Yes - I heard that - but the only way to know this information is by dividing out the sex and gender identity question into two.

He used cisgender throughout - I don’t have a gender identity and I’m not cisgender. As usual the BBC don’t pick up the fact that cisgender is an ideology, not a fact.

I might email the BBC to complain that I have been misgendered throughout. Is this a hate crime?

Prof Sullivan was amazing!

She was wasn't she? So good to hear good sense on this issue on the BBC for a change. Losing any analytical category is a matter for regret. Losing one as significant as sex is unthinkable and could have the most appalling ramifications

I didn't catch it but she's tweeted abt it with a couple of extra points.
mobile.twitter.com/ProfAliceS/status/1349637769786765312

Apparently we can provide feedback to the Scots Gov census proposal?

mobile.twitter.com/mbmpolicy/status/1349013679270932482

Anyone got any links for this?

UppityPuppity I think there's a bit of confusion here - although the census is mentioned the MBM thread is talking about the report issued by the Sex and Gender Data Working Group, and it's this that you can give feedback on.

See the info here:
www.mumsnet.com/ReportTalkPost?topicid=5365&threadid=4134433&msgid=103608329

Ah, I didn't mean to link to a Report Post link - was just trying to link to the particular post on the thread.

Anyway it's on this thread near the bottom:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4134433-Questions-on-Biological-Data-wiped-from-official-data-Times-article

Apparently my biological sex doesn't impact my life. What a load of shite.

Betsy thanks for clarification. Will look at your links.

Prof Sullivan was so clear and objective. She stressed the need for accurate data on both sex and gender identity.
The other speaker - blown out of all proportion, current climate on trans issues particularly in the media. Hi-jacked by certain groups.

They really can't help themselves with the smear tactics. Even with limited time they can't present their case with objective evidence.

Why is it so difficult for these people to acknowledge that my actual female biology has had an impact on my life which men do not experience. Nothing to do with what I wear or how I feel or my style of shoe.

As a scottish taxpayer I think if the Scottish census cannot be arsed to collect sex aggrigated data making all their data worthless the entire org should be shut down. It costs millions to run the census. Anyone else up for starting a campagin?

Here is Prof Sullivan talking about it on Twitter:

twitter.com/ProfAliceS/status/1349637769786765312

If the census is now just to give a nice validating experience then it needs to be run and funded by Stonewall or Mermaids, or they can set up a charity or crowdfund for it. People are losing businesses and homes, tax payers cannot be asked to fund pointless vanity projects that do nothing but keep civil servants playing The Gas Man Cometh.

@MichelleofzeResistance

If the census is now just to give a nice validating experience then it needs to be run and funded by Stonewall or Mermaids, or they can set up a charity or crowdfund for it. People are losing businesses and homes, tax payers cannot be asked to fund pointless vanity projects that do nothing but keep civil servants playing The Gas Man Cometh.

yes ! this is exactly what it will become a vanity project to 'validate' men - public orgnisations should NOT be run on this basis. I found that running the census takes 10 years of prep and each one costs in Scotland £63 million.

the tweeters answering Alice Sullivan are so dim. Cite a survey showing possible evidence that trans women's earnings drop and trans men's rise then bleat 'how would you get proof? you'd have to ask every trans person in the world'
If only we had a reasonably accurate widescale tool for asking about income, sex and gender identity like THE CENSUS

@MichelleofzeResistance

If the census is now just to give a nice validating experience then it needs to be run and funded by Stonewall or Mermaids, or they can set up a charity or crowdfund for it. People are losing businesses and homes, tax payers cannot be asked to fund pointless vanity projects that do nothing but keep civil servants playing The Gas Man Cometh.

Yes indeed.