Irish Mother and baby homes

[Colouringaddict]

Finally today a five year report has been released. 9,000 babies dying and being placed in a mass grave sparked the investigation.

Decades of suffering for thousands of families.

The church will be asked to contribute to the restorative justice for the victims. Despite the fact that there was no evidence of the church forcing the women into these homes ( and we all know that isn’t true).

The Irish P.M will also issue an apology.

It isn’t enough is it?

@torquewench

From what limited knowledge I have, Christian Brothers werent exactly known for being christian in their attitude towards their pupils either?

The Christian Brothers were notorious for their abuse. During my PhD, I consumed a large amount of material in regards to Catholic schools. The Jesuits, for instance, had a reputation for being tough; you wouldn’t escape corporal punishment if you went to a Jesuit school. But generally the former pupils of Jesuit schools didn’t think too badly of them; they had high standards, and a sense of fairness. By contrast, I didn’t come across a single person who had a good thing to say about the Christian Brothers. Their establishments were known for arbitrary brutality, and physical abuse that often crept over into sexual abuse. It would be unusual for a child to spend time at an institution run by the Christian Brothers, and come out unscathed.

Lighthousekeeper72 MilkMoon all valid points but i still can’t quite get my head around the terrible fear Irish mothers in particular (like mine) had/have about the morality of their daughters. Did the priests instill this in that generation? Or was it the nuns on the priests behalf?

I’m glad the power of the Catholic church has dismissed in Ireland but fear the targets are still women who don’t worship the power of the almighty penis bearers

My first post on this thread was about my dad and his upbringing im a convent. His best friend (who later became my "uncle" and godfather) was taught by the christian brothers. Both kindred spirits lucky not to be scarred for life by their experiences. I recall my uncle saying he'd experienced enough abuse to put more than one of his teachers in prison. (Apologies for derailing, just mulling a few things over)

My Irish Catholic mother was educated by nuns. All she would really say about them was that the Sisters of Mercy had no mercy.

I went to two schools run by TSOM, I agree.

At junior school my teacher (nun) decided one boy had drawn in a text book, he wouldn't admit it so every day she asked him and then he was given the ruler for not admitting it. In front of the class obviously.

Eventually the boy who had drawn in the book admitted it.

It was spun as the first boy should 'offer up his suffering as a prayer' so it was a good thing he's been repeatedly punished for something he didn't do.

And this was in England where there wasn't quite as much reverence,

i still can’t quite get my head around the terrible fear Irish mothers in particular (like mine) had/have about the morality of their daughters

I think it would have been society - so just something you absorbed from everything around you. I am in my late 60s but when I was at secondary school (in Scotland, not Ireland) girls were common, slappers etc if they dressed with, say tight fitting school blouses or too much makeup. (Though things did change quite quickly)
If they did get pregnant it was them who was ostracised. Somehow the men had nothing to do with it?? Babies were also brought up by their Grandmothers as if their own so no one knew.
My family weren't Catholic but I remember a friend I'd met when pubbing having to go away to have a baby (to have it adopted) probably aged 18. I was shocked as we were quite irreligious but she seemed quite accepting of it - I can only presume she was Catholic. And no talk of an abortion.

@Handsoffstrikesagain I went to secondary in 1978 so 77/78.

I don't know whether the child would tell the parents, I didn't when I got the ruler.

I think my parents would have complained (I didn't notice my class had left the dining room, I was talking to another child, once we realised they had gone we got up to leave and both got the ruler).

But I would have still spent 9am to 3 pm in her company and I'm sure she would have found a legitimate reason to punish me.

She would take away chairs and make people kneel on the floor to work, banned playtime and we often had weeks of 'just maths and English' to punish the class for, well, whatever.

Sorry I don't mean to derail this from the much more serious abuse Irish women and girls endured.

Martina Devlin. On radio Scotland now.

State society and religion to blame

Their fathers and brothers threw them out. Their mothers seemed powerless

Women were called sluts and sinners

Forced adoptions. Official documents doctored

A republic of shame

The babies fathers didn’t have to hide in the shadows. After all what did it have to do with them

It was a very good report from her

There but for the grace of God.

My great grandmother had my grandmother in 1944 as an unwed mother. But as a wealthy woman living in England she went to 'help a friend in London' for 6 months.

She visited the friend many times in the following 5 years before coming home with her 'adopted war orphan' I sure her parents knew, considering my grandmother was the spit of her mother but they never mentioned it.

She was just lucky to have money and supportive friends and to live in England.

When my grandmother fell pregnant unmarried aged 19 in the 60s god help anyone who told my great grandmother she should be ashamed of her daughter!

The report is heart breaking and it should be plastered all over the news, people need to know what happened to these poor women and their babies

@Jetatyeovilaerodrome

The whole thing is so heartbreaking. I have a huge Irish family and as far as I know, within my own family, no one was affected by this (apart from of course my own Grandmother who went through pregnancy and birth 10 times because there was no contraception!)

However, I have a friend whose mother was born in one of these homes, and the negative repercussions of that have passed down through 2 more generations, and will probably continue to pass down to the next in all honesty.

Philomena is such an excellent film, but I'll never be able to watch it again I don't think

Also fuck anyone who says that 'biology is irrelevant' and just a 'grey area' and it's all about how you feel on the inside. And that includes Colm Fucking O'Gorman and his scorn for women who 'defend biology'.

I agree on the effects on generations.

My grandmother was raised somewhere like this. She had huge attachment issues and problems with alcohol.

So did my Dad.

We are nc.

www.irishtimes.com/opinion/breda-o-brien-it-took-almost-100-years-to-hear-alice-litster-shouting-stop-1.4459381?mode=amp
Interesting article in today's Irish Times

"Irish society took a long time to listen to those who shouted stop about the Mother and Baby Homes. While that story is not yet over, perhaps we also could ask ourselves what practices that today are seen as not only acceptable but essential, will be looked back on with horror tomorrow?"

Indeed

**She was described by one bishop as 'a troublesome spinster who thought she knew everything about what was best for babies'"

Clearly, the Bishop (a bachelor!!!) knew more about what was best for babies than anyone else.

Have a look on YouTube for a song by Joni Mitchell called The Magdalene Laundries, it’s from 1994

It is very moving

@sashh

My Irish Catholic mother was educated by nuns. All she would really say about them was that the Sisters of Mercy had no mercy.

I went to two schools run by TSOM, I agree.

At junior school my teacher (nun) decided one boy had drawn in a text book, he wouldn't admit it so every day she asked him and then he was given the ruler for not admitting it. In front of the class obviously.

Eventually the boy who had drawn in the book admitted it.

It was spun as the first boy should 'offer up his suffering as a prayer' so it was a good thing he's been repeatedly punished for something he didn't do.

And this was in England where there wasn't quite as much reverence,

My aunt and my grandmother used to say exactly the same,

"They were called the Sisters of Mercy but there was nothing merciful about them"

That was my Granny.

My Aunt simply left her Catholic school at aged 14 and bpneber set foot in a church again until her funeral. She remained a Catholic all her life but observed her faith alone .

A shame she never lived to meet my Catholic Priest friend who despite being a priest has little positive to say about the institution of the church. He says they have a lot to be ashamed of.

Peter Mullan who directed a film about the laundries had asked a nun how these terrible things could happen and she answered “ an absence of doubt”.
Their beliefs became arrogance and that lead to evil imho.

@Handsoffstrikesagain

Gosh sashh that is awful. I was taught by Nuns. Most were really lovely. One revelled in being a complete bitch. She took pleasure out of it. One year 11 girl had enough one lunchtime, punched her in the face and dragged her to the floor. I don’t condone violence but no one seemed to care much. I don’t even remember any teachers or other nuns immediately rushing to her aid come to think of it 🧐

The thing that gets me about all of this is how frightening it is the power that state and religion can hold over someone. Nothing and no one could ever get me to physically, mentally or emotionally abuse my children. Nothing society deemed wrong (except genuine evils like paedophilia and rape) could get me to turn my back on them. Babies are blessings. Whether you are married or not, they are a wonderful innocent new life. Not something to be shunned and punished for. That as a parent you could throw your own flesh and blood out for a pregnancy is one of the most evil things of all.

With respect, you’re writing in secular 2021, where ‘unmarried motherhood’ is no longer really a concept, far less a stigmatised one (unless the pregnant girl is very young), where almost half of the births in England and Wales in 2019 were outside of marriage, where abortion is safe, legal and freely available, where sex education is widespread, and contraception available, where a pregnant woman or girl has the internet and easy access to advice, counselling, clinics, benefits etc that will allow her to keep her baby, if she wishes.

Can you really be so sure that you’d have been as heroic as you imagine in a different place and time, where only a tiny percentage of people — you would have been unlikely to know of any — did what you’re so certain you would have done? Why do you suppose entire populations were so ‘evil’?

@Handsoffstrikesagain

And where did I say entire populations were evil? Also as explained in PP, myself and my DH are from very religious Irish Catholic families. It’s probably not worth your time to tell me what I would and wouldn’t have done, ‘with respect’.

Are you Irish and living in Ireland?

Because your previous post about your grandmother suggests your grandmother was living in the UK and helped a relative to travel over from Ireland and have her baby, and later brought up another family member's child as hers. Which is undeniably a good thing to do in both cases, and your family was lucky to have her, but it's an entirely different situation to if she were living in Ireland in the 1950s, especially outside the cities, regardless of her Catholicism.

The effects of the industrial school system is still felt now, because they broke the humanity of generations of boys who grew up to be broken men. I had never heard of them until I met a survivor through my work, and read the books written by other survivors.

Unimaginable levels of cruelty, abuse and deprivation on small children who needed care the most. I genuinely don't advise anyone to read about it, it will haunt you and the images in your head don't leave.

Anyone on here who's own family survived the industrial schools or the mother and baby homes, my heart aches for you.

I look at random old people now with a whole new perspective. What have they seen? How were they raised? I'm Scottish and we had some absolute horrors here too, right up to the 1970's.