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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Aibu to be annoyed by this?

53 replies

LadyInParis · 10/01/2021 17:32

Since losing my best friend a few years ago, she passed away, I have made some female friends but they never worked out. So I shied away from making friends for a long time. I then decided to try to make some female friends to help improve my life and help move on. I have zero female friends. So I signed up to a friends making site and stated I wanted female friends only. After a few messages from men who either didn’t read, or didn’t care that I had stated in my profile that I am engaged and only looking for female friends, I finally got a message from someone with the name “Kirsty”. I was really excited. It was a normal “hello I’m Kirsty how are you” kind of thing. I was happy - finally a girl! Until I opened the profile. Pics below. Am I being unfair to feel a bit, well, let down and tricked? I deleted my account after that and will find another more well known friends app like bumble maybe. Pics below

OP posts:
PotholeParadies · 10/01/2021 20:00

Over the years on MN, I have seen a particular phenomenon over and over. It goes like this.

A woman has been approached by a man on a dating site. She doesn't like him, but she feels guilty and feels she's being discriminatory against him for something he can't help (like his personality or poor hygiene), so she's trying to push herself into persevering just in case it could work out.

Once I'd noticed this pattern in other women, I noticed I did things like it too, of course, and I realised how deeply women are conditioned to put other people first.

Websites may be subject to the equality act, but we the members are human beings. Friendships and relationships with other people are things that are built slowly over time, not prizes to be won.

Don't feel guilty about Kirsty. Please, please don't.

Binglebong · 10/01/2021 20:28

The very first thing he did was disrespect your boundaries. The first.

You don't need that in your life.

LadyInParis · 10/01/2021 20:28

dumpling23

@Whatsnewpussyhat
What a great insight. Absolutely - OP said she was looking for female friends not for the thrilling opportunity to participate in a male's fantasy and roleplay.
I also feel the point about boundaries is important. All the men who messaged you demonstrated a good dose of male arrogance in flat-out ignoring what you'd written. But 'Kirsty' seems to be engaging in an attempt to get you to push against your boundaries, and it's definitely worth pausing on that thought, before blocking and moving on.

Thank you for putting my whole point in a readable and easy to understand way. This is what i was trying to say. It’s simple to block and ignore. But what I wanted was to explore the way it made me feel and why, and how my instincts and boundaries are developing into something stronger and better. That was my pause. Thank you.

PotholeParadies

Over the years on MN, I have seen a particular phenomenon over and over. It goes like this.

A woman has been approached by a man on a dating site. She doesn't like him, but she feels guilty and feels she's being discriminatory against him for something he can't help (like his personality or poor hygiene), so she's trying to push herself into persevering just in case it could work out.

Once I'd noticed this pattern in other women, I noticed I did things like it too, of course, and I realised how deeply women are conditioned to put other people first.

Websites may be subject to the equality act, but we the members are human beings. Friendships and relationships with other people are things that are built slowly over time, not prizes to be won.

Don't feel guilty about Kirsty. Please, please don't.

I agree and I don’t feel guilty. I felt angry and duped and wanted to know if I was right to feel how I felt about it, or if I was being over sensitive. At the end of the day it’s just a simple matter of block and forget but for someone trying to create and enforce new boundaries, it’s worth a pause for a moment to explore those feelings and why. I certainly don’t feel guilty. But thank you for saying that because if I had felt guilty I would have wanted to hear that I shouldn’t!

I appreciate this dialogue and all of you, thank you

OP posts:
DidoLamenting · 10/01/2021 20:36

Nope, YANBU. I would be annoyed by this too and especially annoyed that this mand wants female friends for stereotypical girly stuff like make up and shopping

Why does that annoy you? If I were on a site like this I would absolutely mention clothes and shopping, perhaps not make up but definitely the others. I'm interested in them - if he is too why not put it in their profile? . At the very least it would weed out people who dismiss such interests as "stereotypically girly stuff"

JoodyBlue · 10/01/2021 20:37

Of course YANBU. Flowers

OhHolyJesus · 10/01/2021 20:39

I'm sorry to hear about your experiences OP, that makes sense in terms of you doubting yourself or your own boundaries. I imagine that due to the abuse you have had your boundaries broken before and perhaps have been gaslit so much that you might be struggling to find them again. You are allowed to have them, we come with them built-in as instincts and these can be used against us. I'm no expert and don't speak from experience so I'm just trying to put myself in your shoes. It makes me furious when women are made to feel bad for clearly marking a line that is crossed and it's the woman who feels guilty and feels she should apologise or be 'educated'.

I think sometimes the manipulation can be subtle, it is almost invisible. I imagine it harder to define why you feel uncomfortable if you boundaries have been badly undermined you don't trust your own instincts, your own feelings.

Kirsty would no doubt defend himself here by saying he was honest, why are we rejecting him, he isn't pretending, he's not like the others etc etc ....but he is, he just can't see that he is because he is a narcissist and places no value on your or your request, which was a very simple one. He is no different from the other men who messaged you. In fact he is worse.

You are allowed to have boundaries, you can state them and uphold them and defend them. That doesn't make you rude let alone transphobic or bigoted or any of the things women are so regularly called when we say 'no'. (Best one for me so far is Nazi, it was just so irrelevant to what I was saying...anyway).

I have made some solid friendships online through common interests, I would say these new friendship now replace ones who I made a long time ago as I have changed. I actually think differently and have more in common with these new friends so they are easier friendships, less hard work. Maybe it's cliché but through a hobby or a group you might find new friends in real life. If you meet online do see if you can at least call them for a chat so you can get to know them offline, and also tell from their voice whether they are who they say you are!

And I'm sorry you lost your best friend. Again I can only imagine. Thanks

3rdNamechange · 10/01/2021 20:47

YANBU invasion of women's space AGAIN.

despairenting · 10/01/2021 20:55

You can hire personal stylists and make-up artists who will show you how to get a flattering look; you don't need to make women who want friends do unpaid labour for you. Nice of him to assume that because you're female you must be an expert in and lover of clothes and fashion and make-up because hehe squee don't us girls just love those things so much!!

Whatsnewpussyhat · 10/01/2021 20:59

Why does that annoy you? If I were on a site like this I would absolutely mention clothes and shopping, perhaps not make up but definitely the others. I'm interested in them - if he is too why not put it in their profile? . At the very least it would weed out people who dismiss such interests as "stereotypically girly stuff

The OP specified that she was looking for female friends. This man's entitlement to ignore her clear boundaries for his own selfish need is very telling.
To me it's not about the 'stereotypical girly things' and more about how these males think females as a whole behave.

Why can't he find male friends interested in fashion etc? No. He wants girly chats and the fantasy that males think is womanhood.

ChattyLion · 10/01/2021 21:28

‘I like girly things’
Unless you specified your own liking of ‘girly things’ in your post on that site OP, it looks like Kirsty’s a sexist bellend making a lot of assumptions about women. He needs to find actual willing props to his role playing in an upfront way and not try to project on to others.

LadyInParis · 10/01/2021 22:03

OhHolyJesus

I'm sorry to hear about your experiences OP, that makes sense in terms of you doubting yourself or your own boundaries. I imagine that due to the abuse you have had your boundaries broken before and perhaps have been gaslit so much that you might be struggling to find them again. You are allowed to have them, we come with them built-in as instincts and these can be used against us. I'm no expert and don't speak from experience so I'm just trying to put myself in your shoes. It makes me furious when women are made to feel bad for clearly marking a line that is crossed and it's the woman who feels guilty and feels she should apologise or be 'educated'.

I think sometimes the manipulation can be subtle, it is almost invisible. I imagine it harder to define why you feel uncomfortable if you boundaries have been badly undermined you don't trust your own instincts, your own feelings.

Kirsty would no doubt defend himself here by saying he was honest, why are we rejecting him, he isn't pretending, he's not like the others etc etc ....but he is, he just can't see that he is because he is a narcissist and places no value on your or your request, which was a very simple one. He is no different from the other men who messaged you. In fact he is worse.

You are allowed to have boundaries, you can state them and uphold them and defend them. That doesn't make you rude let alone transphobic or bigoted or any of the things women are so regularly called when we say 'no'. (Best one for me so far is Nazi, it was just so irrelevant to what I was saying...anyway).

I have made some solid friendships online through common interests, I would say these new friendship now replace ones who I made a long time ago as I have changed. I actually think differently and have more in common with these new friends so they are easier friendships, less hard work. Maybe it's cliché but through a hobby or a group you might find new friends in real life. If you meet online do see if you can at least call them for a chat so you can get to know them offline, and also tell from their voice whether they are who they say you are!

And I'm sorry you lost your best friend. Again I can only imagine.

Thank you so so much. Everything you said was exactly my thoughts. And everything you said about having had my boundaries so skewed already making it harder, just everything you said thank you. Every word was spot on, that has been my life and I’m trying to find boundaries I didn’t know I was allowed!! Thank you so much. And for the condolences. It makes it so much harder to even try to make friends. She was one of those friends that you can’t ever replace. You can find new ones that are great in other ways, but not the irreplaceable one. So it makes things like this harder. I appreciate your post it’s like you read my mind. Really.

DidoLamenting

Nope, YANBU. I would be annoyed by this too and especially annoyed that this man wants female friends for stereotypical girly stuff like make up and shopping

Why does that annoy you? If I were on a site like this I would absolutely mention clothes and shopping, perhaps not make up but definitely the others. I'm interested in them - if he is too why not put it in their profile? . At the very least it would weed out people who dismiss such interests as "stereotypically girly stuff"

Because 1) I asked for female friends. So he crossed my boundaries by messaging me at all because he sometimes likes to dress up 2) My profile mentioned nothing at all similar to what he was looking for which was 3) “typically girly” things to reel in women who do like make up, which is manipulative as HE is stereotyping what HE thinks women like in order to get interest and 4) I stated clearly on my profile what I want and he matched none of it so why message me? I’m not a doll to play make up with. I didn’t even mention make up hair nails or any of the sort on there. 5) Alternatively, I don’t like what he does when he’s being in his words a “typical bloke who likes football and sports”. So neither of our likes are remotely matched. 6) I want female friends, not male friends who like to sometimes be female and talk celebs and make up and get make up tips and play fashion and photography. All totally innocent of course... not at all arousing for a sometimes woman Hmm So why not message someone else without crossing boundaries? There IS the option on there for male AND female friends after all.. You can pick female friends only, male friends only, or female and male friends. Soooo.. why the female with specific opposing boundaries wants and needs?

THAT is why it’s all annoying. Hth.

3rdNamechange

YANBU invasion of women's space AGAIN.

Exactly, thank you!

despairenting

You can hire personal stylists and make-up artists who will show you how to get a flattering look; you don't need to make women who want friends do unpaid labour for you. Nice of him to assume that because you're female you must be an expert in and lover of clothes and fashion and make-up because hehe squee don't us girls just love those things so much!!

And this ^ with bells on. Alternatively you can find someone with similar kinks to get your jollies off if that’s the intention too. Not women who are genuinely wanting and needing friends and are currently quite vulnerable. Luckily not enough to fall for it. How would we do fashion and clothes and make up together? Trying on dresses in front of each other? The delicate touches involved when making up someone’s face and the closeness necessary? If it’s genuine then find someone who likes the same as you and research together and go to professional make up artists and all that. Thank you for this point!!

Whatsnewpussyhat

Why does that annoy you? If I were on a site like this I would absolutely mention clothes and shopping, perhaps not make up but definitely the others. I'm interested in them - if he is too why not put it in their profile? . At the very least it would weed out people who dismiss such interests as "stereotypically girly stuff

The OP specified that she was looking for female friends. This man's entitlement to ignore her clear boundaries for his own selfish need is very telling.
To me it's not about the 'stereotypical girly things' and more about how these males think females as a whole behave.

Why can't he find male friends interested in fashion etc? No. He wants girly chats and the fantasy that males think is womanhood.

Thank you, this is exactly it. At the expense of another woman no less!

ChattyLion

‘I like girly things’
Unless you specified your own liking of ‘girly things’ in your post on that site OP, it looks like Kirsty’s a sexist bellend making a lot of assumptions about women. He needs to find actual willing props to his role playing in an upfront way and not try to project on to others.

Exactly thank you. And for the record to those who don’t understand the issue- to clarify. I put zero about fashion, make up, nails, celeb gossip, or any other bullshit people think women love because I don’t. I like make up sure. Is it a hobby or big interest? Nope. On my profile I put reading, playing instruments, mixed martial arts, creating things artistic, documentaries, learning new things, eating lots of cake. So, where do we match as friends exactly? Being that I also asked for females? As friends only? Because I also put about the fact I’m engaged on there (a fact many men ignored). I also don’t live in London. Also on my profile (now deleted). How would he imagine we do make up and fashion sessions? Interesting that one isn’t it.. the only way he could get his needs would be via internet wouldn’t it. Videos, Skype chats that can be recorded, messages, photos. Just dodgy.

OP posts:
OhHolyJesus · 10/01/2021 22:48

OP you sound lovely!

I didn't lose a friend like you did, (I was dropped by a very good friend because I don't think kids should see fetish at Prides) so I can only imagine the loss really. I honestly think I would be a different person if I lost my best friend. I value my relationship of course but my friendships are like nothing else. The women I hold dear to me are so central to my life, I would be lost without them.

Feel free to DM me any time xx

Duffmcstockings · 10/01/2021 23:44

You are looking for a friend, someone who has had similar limitations and life choices to you. Not to cheerlead someone else completely different, but slightly encroaching life choices.

Duffmcstockings · 10/01/2021 23:52

Fuckit, I can count my friends on the fingers of one hand. I have plenty of room for another one.. can meet you in Paris next year x

Typesofcatalogue · 11/01/2021 00:11

What is a ‘female side’ exactly?

PlantMam · 11/01/2021 00:16

You were looking for female friends, whereas he is a male looking for female support humans.

YANBU.

LadyInParis · 11/01/2021 08:20

Typesofcatalogue

What is a ‘female side’ exactly?

I’m afraid you’ll have to ask Kirsty Grin Because I have no idea. At a guess I’d say, from my instincts and the way he wrote his profile and went about the whole thing, that he is a man who gets off on dressing up as a woman and wants to be around women who would innocently be doing sayyyy.. his make up, for “tips” and “ideas” but secretly getting off on it. Or liking the idea of being a woman around another woman and getting off that way. Or using it to force a woman’s guard down so she sees him as harmless and in time after his games which he will enjoy no doubt, and get off on the build up of, get to change in front of each other which will be arousing for him to both undress in front of the woman, and also see the naked or half naked woman. If you read on the picture, what he put makes it clear that he doesn’t plan to change gender. In fact (this I forgot I’m sorry for drip feed!!) he put on his profile he is married. So either a lie to reel women in, or he wants his kink without disturbing his marriage. Who knows? All men have what we stereotype as a more feminine side; by this I mean the stereotype of being softer, more gentle, sensitive. And all women have what we stereotype as a male side; more rough and tough ie my martial arts sport, etc. So really we are men and women with our own personality and our own sensitive side and tough side. That’s the line drawn really. So what this man wants is to explore a feminine side the whole hog ie make up etc, but still be a man. So he wants both. He can’t have both not really. I don’t know I’m rambling I just woke up!! Sorry Blush it’s just ever so odd

OP posts:
LadyInParis · 11/01/2021 08:24

PlantMam

You were looking for female friends, whereas he is a male looking for female support humans.

YANBU.

Thank you this is true (at best; he could have a kink which would make it worse)
I appreciate that people see why I felt a certain way about it because I don’t have to doubt my instincts which is good for my progress in boundaries etc. For those who disagreed with me, I only felt my boundaries strengthening against the comments that said he did nothing wrong. Which again is great for me because I’m usually full of self doubt but I’m starting to stick to my own feelings which is a great step for me.

OP posts:
LadyInParis · 11/01/2021 08:27

Duffmcstockings

Fuckit, I can count my friends on the fingers of one hand. I have plenty of room for another one.. can meet you in Paris next year x

This is great! Happy to meet for coffee and show some nice restaurants Smile how kind! I’d love to! I have friends I can count on half a hand; but all male and I miss that bond between women.

OP posts:
LadyInParis · 11/01/2021 08:28

Duffmcstockings

You are looking for a friend, someone who has had similar limitations and life choices to you. Not to cheerlead someone else completely different, but slightly encroaching life choices.

And this in spades!!

OP posts:
LadyInParis · 11/01/2021 08:48

OhHolyJesus

OP you sound lovely!

I didn't lose a friend like you did, (I was dropped by a very good friend because I don't think kids should see fetish at Prides) so I can only imagine the loss really. I honestly think I would be a different person if I lost my best friend. I value my relationship of course but my friendships are like nothing else. The women I hold dear to me are so central to my life, I would be lost without them.

Feel free to DM me any time xx

What a lovely post! This is true. I lost my mum (suicide) when I was 13, then years later my best friend, which meant other women friends all sort of drifted apart after that, and less than a year later after my friend I lost my Nan who had been like a mother to me most of my life. I crave strong female bonds and while it’s nice I have a couple of male friends who are good men, they don’t really jibe with me the way women do. It’s just not the same. I met one woman in Paris she was English too. In the end it was all about her her her she was such a drain just having a conversation. At a dinner once (that we paid for- she didn’t even buy a drink and she smoked all my fiancé’s cigarettes too) Complaining about everything so when I would suggest something she would say why that wont help then go on to complain about that and on and on it was all about her. Even my fiancé could see me getting so tired that he would cut in to give me a rest! Then on the way back (we were near our apartment) we went outside our apartment and she kept hinting and hinting so much to come inside. I mean billboard flashing lights hinting. She wanted to see our animals (we have dogs birds rabbits) it was 1am ish! I was so proud when I kept to my boundaries and kept saying no. Imagine coming back at 1am (because one of her hints was “I could still watch a movie and chill” while looking at our window pointedly) so imagine coming back at 1am and waking the rabbits who have their routine, the cockatiel birds who also have their routine (they are like children they go to bed and stay there and get very vocal if woken) and they are so loud which then wakes the finches so you’d have hyper dogs (always happy to see someone) stomping and jumping, the rabbits thumping in anger, the cockatiels screaming pissed off, and the finches twittering away scared to death of what’s going on as they are tiny, and the neighbours who are trying to sleep! She must have stood there for at least half an hour or more hinting and then complaining about the walk home to make me feel bad and that a taxi is expensive (she claims to work in such a well paid job that a 50k a year job offer was offensive to her Hmm caught her out in many such lies as this as fiancé overheard her telling the waitress when she thought we couldn’t hear, that she had been on benefit help since March etc) and I was so proud I didn’t give in or pay her taxi. Heard nothing from her after that until she messaged my fiancé asking for 250 euro loan (didn’t happen) then nothing again. Just too much drama. Another female friend of the family going behind my back to message my fiancé she had never met for money (again; the first time we did lend as had no idea a lifelong family friend would take the piss so I put her in touch with him to arrange the transfer which is how she had his details) and a month or so later instead of asking me she asks my fiancé a total stranger to her for money behind my back. I just want normal women who are strong and enjoy each other’s company! As you said you’d be lost without your female friends. And I am so lost too, it’s so hard to even seek friendships after losing my friend, but I need to do it and when something like this happens it’s easy to give in to that part of me that says- no don’t put yourself out there again you might lose someone again. Etc. Sorry for the ramble!

I appreciate your posts a lot thank you and I will pm you if you’re sure it’s ok! Thank you for the support here

OP posts:
LadyInParis · 11/01/2021 08:58

I suppose I just want women who don’t see my fiancé as a bank, or my home as a free for all petting zoo at 1am and pushing my boundaries, a friend who is equal in friendship and not draining all about her. An equal friendship of support and normal things. Equally kind, truthful, loyal, fair, genuine, just normal. This kind of jolted me a bit but as others have said online is full of this shit. It’s only on mumsnet incidentally, that women seem (mostly!) normal. I have learned so much from the women here and their posts and stories. Nethuns isn’t my thing at all. I hate the whole hun and babe crap and baby listings at the bottom of their posts as if they are listing credentials etc. Anyway I suppose I’ll keep trying!! I’m lucky in many ways so I have to remember that!

OP posts:
Whatsnewpussyhat · 11/01/2021 09:42

What is a ‘female side’ exactly?

I think it's the pillow fights and giggling.

Shedbuilder · 11/01/2021 09:53

You're not at all unreasonable to be pissed off. This is a man and you specified that you were looking for women. Just block and let's hope he doesn't find a vulnerable woman who'll support his fantasies.

This is what life is like for lesbians on dating apps.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 11/01/2021 14:12

Yanbu. You made it clear you were looking for female friends. There's no limit to these men's sense of entitlement.

Better luck next time. I found it hard to make friends when I moved to different places. Joining local groups (eg environmental, hobby or community groups) turned out to be my best tactic, as that gave me something I liked to do as well as meeting compatible people.